1998 Chrysler Concorde Auto Temp Control

Hi Bob...

I appreciate the leg-work you're doing. If it turns out the places here have a compatible part, I might even try just going to their location if they're not too far away.

I'll stop by the dealership and see if they're willing to work with me on getting part numbers and telling me which part numbers fit which years. Sort of like a reverse engineered cross reference system.

For the arm rest, if I took it to an upholstery shop, they'd have to order the parts just like I would. It's the plastic frame that attaches at the hinge area that's broken. Cheap design that didn't stand up under me leaning on it while reaching into the back seat area. No biggee.... Low on my priority list these days.

I'll let you know what I find out at the dealership.

Take care, Sir....

Bill

Frustrating....

Hi Bob...

I talked with a service writer and a mechanic at the dealership where I have my car maintained yesterday. The mechanic said that I should use a new BCM because it is supposed to be programmed with the car's VIN and other data. Apparently, a used one may not allow the car to operate correctly. I have suspicions that the mechanic may be thinking of a newer version of car with a Chassis Control Module instead of a BCM. Next week I'll talk with the parts dept guy about this and see if the VINs I have might have compatible BCMs.

I really wish there was a source that could definitively say one way or the other whether I can use a different car's BCM or not.

Take care, Sir.... I'll let you know what I find out next week.

Bill

Bill The BCM is programmable as you see from the info I have provided. You can program certain things for the customer. Soooooooo, I guess if you did find a good one, it would still have to be programmed for your car based off of what your car had. It is still a pain cause you have to use the dealer no matter what.......They should have a flash drive you can plug and unplug from car to car. Let me know what you find out. Oh, I haven't received any responses from the parts request I sent out and it has been a week. Sorry. Bob The Body Control Module (BCM) supplies vehicle occupants with visual and audible information and controls various vehicle functions. To provide and receive information, the module is interfaced to the vehicle's serial bus communications network (the Programmable Communication Interface (PCI bus). This network consists of the powertrain control module (PCM) , the memory heat seat/mirror module (MHSMM) , sentry key immobilizer module (SKIM) , the transmission control module (TCM) , the electro/mechanical instrument cluster (MIC) , the optional overhead travel information system (OTIS) , airbag control module (ACM) , optional anti lock brakes (ABS) and the optional automatic temperature control (ATC) display head. The BCM is operational when battery power is supplied to the module, ignition switch power is needed for ignition switched functions. The body control module provides the following features: Automatic headlamp and foglamp A/C switch status / evaporator temperature status BCM diagnostic support Central lock and unlock (VTSS only) Climate Control (Automatic and Manual) system support Door ajar switch status Door Lock Inhibit (key in ignition or headlamps/park lamps on) Electronic Odometer Support Fog Lamp Control Headlamp multiplexing control Headlamp, Park & tail lamps with battery save feature Headlamp Time Delay Illuminated Entry with "fade to off" Interior lighting with battery save feature Mechanical Instrument Cluster (fuel level, dim data, odometer & warning chime) support Memory system (LHS and 300M) Overhead travel information system Power door lock multiplexing control Rear Window Defogger Control Remote Keyless Entry with Panic Mode Remote power decklid release Rolling door lock control (customer programmable) Sentry key immobilizer Speed proportional steering Vehicle Theft Security System Wiper Control (speed sensitive with return to park) The BCM receives information over the PCI Bus from the PCM in order to support certain features. The required information is as follows: Engine RPM Engine Temperature Injector on Time and Distance Pulses Vehicle Speed Charging System Failure, Engine Temperature Limp-In, VTSS Arming Status Engine Model "Check Engine" lamp status The BCM provides the PCM with information on the NC switch status, battery temperature which is determined by the ambient temperature sensor and the "OK to Start" or VTSS status.

The 1998 and 1999 LH has several customer programmable features which can be disabled or enabled by the customer.

Hey Bill I was going back over the post and was wondering about seeing if something else, some other system points to the BCM as bad also. But first I figured try the in vehicle calibration check to see if it throws any codes. I attached that info - pic below.

Then, I was going back through the info - back on 31 Oct post the Sun Sensor was brought up as it does aid in determining proper mode door position, temperature door position and, blower speed. The only check I had was for the plug. I have attached the system operation and how to check the plug back on the 31st of Oct but don't remember any other discussion on it. Here again is the operation.... SYSTEM OPERATION The sun sensor is only used on vehicles equipped with Automatic Temperature Control (ATC) . The sensor is mounted on the top of the instrument panel below the instrument panel top cover. This is not a thermistor type sensor but rather a photo diode. For this reason the sun sensor responds to sun light intensity rather than temperature. It is used to aid in determining proper mode door position, temperature door position and blower speed. The sun sensor is also used to sense day/night conditions for automatic headlight control if so equipped, and has an LED indicator for the vehicle security system. I was thinking about that BCM and though what about another system checking it. I attached the OTIS checkout. What I was looking at was number 2, if no communication replace the BCM.

Next OTIS Test 2A. It calls for a scan tool in numbers 1 and 2 and talks about replacing that front sensor. You already replaced it so I say go to step 3 and use the Ohm meter and do this check to see again, does it point to the BCM. Also follow the testing with the ohm meter through steps 7 and 8....see if they point to the BCM. That is below.

Next a little more info on the sun sensor - make sure clear etc.....below Pic

But where I am heading is the next item....pic below. Sun load sensor failure. Yes you need a scan tool (of course) but step 4 has you using an ohm meter and eventually says to replace the BCM. Then the last item is the verification and recal info...pic below.

Well, not sure if any of that is helpful.....just trying to get more confidence that the BCM is no good. Let me know what you think after review of the above info.

WOW...!!!

This makes me want to break into a Chrysler dealership and steal one of those DTC gadgets.... ;-)

I'll print out the post and study it. I know what your drive is in the line of thinking here. If I can find any more issues that point to the BCM that adds to the credibility for replacement of it. That was one of the reasons I ran through the testing of the trunk release button circuit. I'm 99% sure that the BCM is the culprit behind that not working. Adding one or two more systems to the hand might make for a winning combo....

I can also talk with the service writer at the dealership I use about getting a tech to do some additional testing using a DTC. I know it will cost $$$ but the confidence might make it worth it. Hmmmmmm....... Lemme think about this a sec.... I'm going to pay about $100 bucks for them to do a diagnostic run on the car where they've already told me "It's not setting any codes; we can't fix it....." I think I'll break out the multimeter again and do some more "Bob tests".... I like that idea better.

Thanks for the good ideas AGAIN....!!!
I'll send an update as soon as I can get some time upside down and inside out on the floor of the car....


Take care, Sir....

Bill

Well, well, well..............

I started to run the ATC self test to see what codes might have been set, and guess what...??? No self test...!!!!

That's about all I was able to do today. I've come down with a really good cold and have zero motivation for very much in the way of thinking or getting upside down on the front floorboards.

I've been thinking about this, worrying that the ATC might have crapped out, but have come up with a different conclusion.

1. All buttons on ATC cause their respective funtions to work, as advertised. Doors change position and indications agree with the selections.
2. Where the ATC does not directly control these operations, but sends the info to the BCM by way of the PCI, that means the PCI is intact up to the BCM. The BCM is receiving the requests for the operations and responding accordingly.
3. The failure must be within the BCM since communication is intact up to and through the BCM.

Where the tests require such heavy dependence on the scan tool, there's very little other than an occassional voltage or continuity check I can do. I think that the presence of this pretty obvious failure is sufficient justification at this stage to change the BCM.

The service writer at the dealership talked about how customers buy these new from some supplier locally and then bring them to the dealer to be programmed. He indicated the cost is substantially less that what the dealership's parts dept charges. I think he'll tell me the name/location of the supplier so I can get one through them.

Thoughts...????

Bill

Bill

Sorry to hear you are not feeling well. I totally understand…a cold, standing on your head, a contortioned position….yea….not a good mix.

No self test…..I know you have done this 1000 times and the ONLY reason I ask is because you are not feeling well today. For the self test the control head can only be placed into the diagnostic mode while the engine is running and the vehicle is not moving.

The car was running….right? Definitely not trying to insult you…..that’s for sure……just checking…..

When you feel better what about getting the codes read at Auto Zone or O’Reilly’s to see if a code is thrown?

All does seem to point to the BCM. The idea of picking it up and having the dealer program does sound like the best idea. Can you believe it, I never heard back from any of the places I sent out requests too….maybe they didn’t want to provide a price….that is what I asked for…a price they would sell it for and then I would provide payment/shipping info once I saw the price. Doesn’t seem like they liked that idea.

Just for gee wiz though I would first stop by the Zone for codes……..only because it is free and it may tell us something......you know....something like...."How many times are you going to check me...go buy the BCM......that is what is broke." Boy, wouldn't that be a great code!

Hope you feel better!

Bob

No insult detected.....

Hi Bob....

Not to worry about ensuring even a most obvious step is taken. I followed the isntructions to the "T". Car was even in "Park" which I don't normally do. I went back and reread the instructions to make sure I had the right buttons... No dice... No self test...

Would the Auto Zone have a full on scan tool or just a DRB II...??? There's one not too far away, I'll give them a call and see what they say.

With all that's going on in the BCM, you'd think it would hava its own self test feature. Otherwise, you're chasing down issues on the basis of something it controls not working... Not the way I'd design it....

I'll let you know what I get at "The Zone"....

Bill

Hello –

Thanks for the update Bill – hope you get feeling better….. hope you and your family have great Thanksgiving….

Hi Bob...

Well, I waited too long.....

I called the local Auto Zone and their code reader had to be sent in for repair. I then tried Pep Boys and they're not open after 6 on Sundays. I'll have to stop by one evening after work this week.

Still working on Thanksgiving leftovers and have already started getting the Christmas decorations up. I hope you and your family enjoyed a nice Thanksgiving.

More as soon as I can find a place with a code scanner.

Take care,
Bill

Bill!

Great to hear from you. No problem on the scanner. I don’t know….your earlier idea still sounds the best…..you know….break in…….my thought….once caught we could put the scanner for use on the web here for money……the money we make we could get you out on bail……who knows….with enough use we may even be able to get you a good lawyer…okay, probably not the best idea……..:)

Yes….still working on left over’s…..although Thanksgiving started off early working with my father-in-law. They live about 25 miles south of us. We were able to get the header slip clutch for the combine from the machinist first thing and got that installed on the combine.

So while I was on one end of the field cutting beans he was on the other planting winter wheat. After several passes up and down the field….I got an alternator light…..pulled out and took off to the edge of the field to try to unload what I had….got to the semi…..got the load off and as I spun around I got a warning horn and the temp gauge shot up……so shut it down.

As the antifreeze bubbled in the overflow and some spraying out like Old Faithful…..I thought wow….now that looks warm….so I scampered up and started opening all the doors and panels to try to cool the thing a little…..…Broke both alternator/water pump belts…..not easy….but did. So, the rest of the family (about 15 or so from out of town and some local) were up at the farm so we headed up to eat.

Weather came in so done for that day…..Friday picked up parts……did some other things but weather kept us out of the field.

Yesterday….weather. Today….started putting the belts on….got the AC loose and the belt off….went to the other side….disconnected the alternator and as I was looping the first belt to the crankshaft pulley….it flopped around all over. Well there you go. The pulley sheared off the crankshaft which was why the belts threw and the fan chewed them up.

So……down for parts until tomorrow. But I have to go back to work tomorrow so he may need to call out the International folks to come out to the field to assist on this.…so will be hit and miss on that…..otherwise….great time with family and friends.

Yes Christmas….staring to put that up too……..

Yes, please let me know what you find out……I in this with you until the end……

Are you feeling much better???? Sure hope so....

Looking forward to hearing from you……

Bob

Well, you can scratch Auto Zone.....

As it turns out, Pep Boys sued Auto Zone for providing a free reading of codes and was able to get the court to order them to stop. I don't have a clue why Pep Boys could prevail in a suit like this, but this is what the guy at Auto Zone told me. Bummer...!!

Speaking of courts..... Spent the last day and a half sitting through a jury selection process. I was almost selected but was dismissed very close to the end and now am at work. Good thing, it would have been a two week trial... Looked at the guy's record when I got to work. Real bad actor. Constantly in trouble with the law for the last ten years. This one will land him in jail for many years the way I see it.

Sounds like your weekend wasn't as calm and relaxing as mine was. But, it also sounds like they had the right guy on scene at the time. Is your father-in-law's combine made by Chrysler by any chance....???? No... Take that back. Your troubles were out in the open and in your face. Odd that the crankshaft pulley broke like that....

My next option is a coin toss. Take it back to the dealer and demand they use the scan tool to analyze the system or go to Pep Boys and pay them the $$ to check it out.

Another hint.... Last night I went to the garage and the car's interior lights were still on. They should have timed out and turned out when I got out of the car an hour or two earlier. Got into the car and closed the door and the lights went out. BCM I think...

Also, another strange thing happened the other day. Driving along and rolled up the two front windows.... the two map lights came on. Went off as soon as I released the window switches. Applied pressure to the switches - lights on; pressure off - lights off. Repeated this several times. I then scrolled the panel light dimmer down a notch or two and it all went back to normal. This kinda goes along with the map lights occasionally coming on when the A/C compressor kicks on.... Sounds like it's possessed, huh....???

If I hadn't already checked the ground from the BCM to the panel and the chassis I'd swear it sounds like a floating ground issue.... My intuition is still telling me a BCM is the culprit. Without getting a scan tool on it, it's just an educated guess since most of the issues are intermittent. The one thing that is a constant right now is the refusal of the ATC to go into the self test mode. Again, I think that's a BCM issue.

I'm going to call the guy back that supplies the refurbished ATCs and ask him about the ATC not going into self test and see what he thinks.

I'll let you know what he thinks and whether or not I've been able to get it in for a scanner run.

Take care, Sir...!!

Bill

Bill

Well that’s crazy…..it hasn’t caught up here yet….as a matter of fact several of the Pep Boys went out of business here…..so maybe we won’t have to worry about that.

Wow…court….you are lucky to get out of that…..

That’s funny…..no not made by Chrysler…..well, maybe the crankshaft pulley is……come to fine out after only $360…….the pulley has an extremely hard piece of rubber mounted to it that is between the pulley and balancer…..it absorbs shock/vibration etc ….I guess that’s a good idea since you are bouncing around so much…..

Understand about the coin toss……I get to the point there you say….wow….I spend $80 on the check….that could have been $80 toward the part……but then what if it isn’t the part…..I go back and forth at times………….

Things do point to the BCM and Lord knows you have checked out a ton of items…….

Hey…..before you do that scanner run……go back to the court and ask to check the guy out for an evening…………..you’d bring him back…….he would get a good meal………..and you would have a scanner……….sounds like a win win…….

Thanks for the update Bill

Bob

No luck from the ATC guy....

Hi Bob....

I had an email discussion going yesterday with the guy in Connecticut that refurbishes the ATC modules and he was stumped. His belief was that if the ATC didn't go into the self-test that it was most likely the ATC. My understanding of the system may not be as good as his, but it seems to me that if the ATC is able to control the position of all of the doors through the use of the buttons on the front of the ATC module, and those commands are actually received, processed, monitored, and controlled by the BCM, then it would make sense that the BCM would receive the button command for the self-test, initiate the test sequence, cause the doors to move and be calibrated (secondary purpose of the self-test), and then report any anomalies it sees via the display on the ATC head as codes.

Am I missing something here...???

His only suggestion was to get a used BCM from a junk yard and give it a try. I've got the dealer service writer looking into a source he's heard about for a new or refurbished BCM that mechanics have used that he's worked with. It would still require taking the car to the dealer to have the BCM programmed and that would cost an additional $80 or so.

New subject.... The last several posts you've posted here have not generated email notifications so that I know you've uploaded a post. That has caused a several day delay in my responses a couple of times. Lately, I do a regular visual check to see if anything new has been posted. Have I overloaded the system with my whining...????

Take care, Sir...

Bill

YAHOO...!!!

Well, today was a productive day. Not for my company, but I made all kinds of inroads on getting this resolved.

1 - Got a call from my guy at the dealer. No luck getting a BCM locally. Told me that the P/N had gone through several updates, though and I got the new number. He also told me that it would cost $345 for a new one and ~ $35 to program a new one at the dealership.

2 - Being the frugal type that I am, I immediately went online and found all kinds of sources for a replacement using the new number. I also located a place that offers to listen to your sad story for a small fee and then tell you, "That sounds about right." I only did that as a sanity check to see if I was out in left field anywhere.

3 - I called up the source for the replacement BCM and the nice man is going to ship me TWO of them "just in case one has mileage that's closer to my car"...!!! All I have to do is ship him back the two I don't need when I'm all done.

The gent explained that a common problem with the electronic modules is that a capacitor will leak getting the electrolyte on the board. This creates low resistance paths between circuits and causes "phantom" problems such as I've seen. Sometimes a component will go up in smoke and do the same thing. When I take mine out, I'll see if it's possible to open it up without damaging it to see if there are any obvious physical problems with it.

I'm supposed to have the replacements in about 3 - 4 days so I have to sit on my hands until then....

Bob... I want to thank you one more time for your patience and willingness to hang in there with me on this bear of a problem. As soon as I have the replacement in, I'll be sure to drop a line and let you know how it's doing....

Take care, Sir...!!!

Bill

Bill! Glad to hear from you. You have sent me a couple of posts before I could respond. Answering the first. Well, not sure why the delay in the posts coming back and forth and why you have not received the email.....I know we are having a little problem with the system as even some of the things we send to include to each other (the other moderators) are not sending or receiving correctly. This is definitely not whining that's for sure.....I am sure this is outstanding information for everyone that has problems with these types of systems..... I will contact the web monitor to see if there is a problem, limit, etc. If you send me something and don't hear from me....the problem may be a delay in the system...... If you want, go into the PM area as shown below and you can send me a private message not open to the public to read. Send me your email address and I will send you mine. That way if there is a delay or I don't hear from you in a certain time either you or I can email off the post that something has been sent and then go back to the post for any information so others can continue to learn from this.

Great website and information! That is great news.....definitely let me know not only if this works, the condition of yours but also if the website for ourecms works well so we can refer others there. Thanks again for the info Bill Bob

YAHOO...!!! Two "new" BCMs have arrived...!!!!

Well, Bob.... The tension mounts.... Tomorrow after work, I'll be installing the new BCMs. I'll check the mileage indication for each and then make my choice for the one closest to mine. Since they are both of a newer "vintage" I suspect they'll both be relatively low compared to my 132K. As soon as I've tried them and find out whether the car starts or not, then I'll report what I have.

If the car doesn't start, I'll stick the old one in, drive to work and position the car so a tow truck from AAA can get it and have it towed to the dealer for reprogramming. If it does start and runs okay, then I'll just drive it to the dealer myself and go from there.

Keep your fingers crossed, my friend. I'm going strictly on intuition and what seems most logical as far as indications and troubleshooting so far.

If you hear a scream in the middle of the night tomorrow, that will probably be me if it allows the car to start, but none of the problems go away. That would only mean there are serious wiring problems which this guy is not likely to spend time tracking down any time soon.

For my sanity and peace of mind, I'm praying it will work.

To be continued...............

BG

Bill!

Glad to hear from you….they arrived……I think I am excited as you are!

Okay……tomorrows the big night……….I am making popcorn….getting some tea and standing by for the news!

There are thousands reading the post and waiting for the news Bill.......so don't keep us waiting

I am saying a prayer this is gonna do it!

Bob

Bummed.............

Sorry to say your popcorn is going to stale waiting for the news..... Not because the BCMs don't work but because I had to work late tonight and can't do it....... :-P

I'm guessing either tomorrow ( Fri ) night or sometime this weekend... As soon as I get to dig in to it, I'll let you know what gives....

B

Bill

No problem………believe me my popcorn isn’t going stale……I am only making more!

I am still pretty excited to see what happens. Also, thanks again for that web site – the other folks will also benefit from that.

Bob

No go........

Well, I put both BCMs in today and both resulted in a start/stall condition which is a security system feature of the BCM. Apparently when it finds itself in a car it doesn't recognize, it acts as though the car has been broken into and "zeroes out" the pulse width of the injector signal. This allows the engine to crank, start and run momentarily, then die.

I tried to get the ATC to do the self test, but I think the engine is supposed to be running for that. I need to research that again and maybe try it tomorrow if it's not raining.

Odd thing is that after I put the old BCM back in the car and ran an errand, it seems as though the auto temp function might be working. At least it didn't fail back into the manual mode and didn't go bonkers with the temperature and fan speed. I'll leave it in auto until I try a new BCM again.

When I installed the new BCMs, I could see the mileage display for the original car. I thought about why I have the BCMs out of these cars, and the only thing I can think of is that they were both totaled. Sad to think of the cars sitting in a junk yard all wiped out and that someone may have been seriously hurt or worse........

One of the issues that was a problem I thought was a bad BCM indicator was the trunk lid release not working. It seems like such a simple circuit and the wiring continuity and power all seem ok. I'm beginning to wonder if instead of the BCM being bad that I may have a bad junction block.

I really don't want to keep chasing gremlins.... But, I'm now really on a mission. One way or another, I'm going to pin down what's going on with this beast.

Sorry this has turned into such a drama or epic story...........

BG

Bill…….good to hear from you even though not the best of news.

Yes you are correct….. For the self test the control head can only be placed into the diagnostic mode while the engine is running and the vehicle is not moving.

That is interesting about it working………….

True about the junk yard etc………when my daughters started to drive I took them to the junk yard……..walked around and looked at the cars to see doors crushed into the middle of passenger or drives seats, engines sitting through the front…….rear seats slammed into the backs of the front seats………it is sad………does make you think………

I looked at the wiring or all the items the BCM controls…..wow, a lot………Junction Block….a possibility………

The quest continues……………let me know!

Is there anything you would like me to look up?

Bob

Thanks for the support...!!

One thing that is really frustrating is how the maintenance manual constantly refers to the scan tool. I've heard that there is another manual, based on the manufacturer's info. Have you seen or used it..?? I can't recall who the manual publisher is. From what I've seen so far, I could use any and all other technical resources I can lay my hands on.

I'm thinking I'll just keep my eye on the ATC issue for now and see if I can't solve the trunk lid release button issue. That is such a simple circuit, that there has to be some way to resolve that one. Maybe in the process, I'll see or find something else that relates to the other issues. In the meantime, I'm going to hang onto the other BCMs, just in case. I've got something like 30 days before I have to return them for credit.

We were suppposed to see some rain today, but hopefully, it'll hold off and I can play with it some.

What I'd give my eye teeth for would be a scan tool. I may just call around and see if there isn't a shop or a dealer that has one and a gent who sounds like he knows how to use it. Sometimes, it's better to surrender the ego and ask someone else to fix it. This time, though, whoever I talk with is going to have to convince me they know how to troubleshoot electrical/electronic problems.

In the meantime, I'll keep pickin' away at it......

Have a nice Sunday, Sir...!!

BG

Bill Totally understand the frustration about the scan tool. The other day a friend of mine came by with a 1967 Camaro. Opened the hood and there it was........an engine.....yes......just an engine and the only electrical thing I saw was one red wire going to the choke....and then look there it was.........a fuel pump.....on the side of the engine.....if oil/fuel was leaking out you KNEW there was a problem.......a few hoses.......but just an engine........no relays..auto this or that.......... The only thing I know of is the actual service manual for the car. I have the actual service manual for my car.......it is detailed and gives different options to troubleshoot but you still need special tools to check computers. I can ask some of the other moderators if you would like though. Rain.......us rain and snow............ I have attached the circuit for the trunk release if that helps at all. But as we both know it goes through the BCM. Good luck today............enjoy your Sunday also..............the good Lord did.......... At least it "seems" to be kind of working right now...............on auto......I believe you said. Take care Bill............I am still cheering for ya.....I'm not wearing the outfit..:) but I am cheering for ya............... Oh........if you would and don't mind, can you go into the PM part under my name and provide me with your complete address..........this way not everyone on the post knows it.

The "good old days"......

I can totally relate to the 67 Camaro....

One of my favorite pictures from my younger days is one of me sitting on the fender of my 64 Impala with my feet INSIDE the engine compartment, resting on the frame while I was doing something under the hood with the engine. It was a great car that I had a lot of fun with.

Thanks for the schematic. I printed the same one last night just before throwing in the towel for the day and buttoning everything up. I've compared this schematic to the main one for the BCM circuits and just now realized that I was mistaken about the BCM schematic as it relates to the trunk release circuit. If you look for the C-4 pin 8 designation on the BCM circuit schematic you won't see it. It was really causing me some concern last night because the C-4 connector from the trunk release schematic isn't the C-4 on the BCM itself, like I misread the trunk release schematic to mean. I now see it should have been the C-4 of the junction block..... This means that my problem with the trunk may be a junction block issue. DRAT...!!! That also means the other issues may be junction block and not BCM....

I have an errand to run and will try to sort this out later. I think I need to do more digging in the manual and pull out more system-specific schematics. This is where I'm tempted to buy Chrysler manuals and schematic books..... Paper docs are easier to navigate around....

Oh, by the way................. the ATC went back to its old ways this morning.... figures......

Life is never dull.......

BG

Thanks for the update………….

Well, it did work for a little bit………….for entertainment you might plug a different one in…then go back to yours and see if it works again…………even for a little bit……….

There has to be a clue there I would think………..I mean if it were bad…….then why work for a little bit when it was totally out before?

I don’t know…………still thinking about it as I know you are too………….

Just curious if you got the PM....??

Hmmmmm.........

Well this is interesting..............

On the way to work this am, I got the temp inside where I wanted it then decided to try the Auto mode again. It went into the auto mode ok, adjusted the distribution to cool off the inside a little bit (had the temp at 85 to start with), then brought the temp down to the 78 that was currently set. I subsequently lowered the temp to 75 and it maintained it all the way to work with the fan never showing any tendency to go into a crazy fast mode.

I didn't do any maintenance on the car yesterday like removing and reinstalling the BCM or anything else. The only thing different is that the lights and windshield wipers were on because of rain.

I'll keep an eye on it and let you know how it's behaving. This week will probably not allow any investigations due to rain that's forecast until Friday and then being busy with Christmas related activities through most of the weekend.

I still plan to track down the exact reason the trunk release isn't working. As simple as that circuit is, I'll turn in my aviation electrician's union card if I can't fix that simple issue.......

Quick question.... Do you know if Chrysler has any higher level documentation on the operation of the BCM or the other systems other than what's available in the Mitchell manual...??? It would really help if I could get into the "brain" of the system a little more deeply than the Mitchell system allows.

Hope all's well in your neck of the woods and that you're looking forward to some relaxation during the Christmas and New Year's holidays.

Take care, Sir....

BG

Hello –

Okay Bill, I gotta say when I first started reading your post I was a little jealous……..75 and 85 degrees………this morning……..here, 4 degrees………wind chill made it a crisp….minus 15 degrees below zero. BURRRRRR 

Okay…….enough feeling sorry for myself………

That is interesting it is working………..next time it goes out……sounds dumb but I would turn the lights on………….see if that makes a differences………turn them off….then the wipers…..see if that makes a difference then both on………….

I was also thinking……..not sure if you have the wiring diagram…..but you know you said you ran a ground wire right from the BCM to ground…..no change…..

What do you think about running a hot wire, by pass the one that is there if possible and go hot from the junction box………….the only thing there is it is getting power now……….but didn’t the last time before you put the new BCM in…..nothing?

True – the trunk release is a simple circuit…………..

Well, on the documentation of the BCM…….not that I have access to……I am sure they have info on it…..It is possible the dealer may print you some copies from their service manual…..

Is there a manufacture name on the ones you have?

I did just send an email to a friend of mine…………..no promises……

Yes………..looking forward to some R&R but around here………as I am sure at your place there always seems to be something going on.

Looking forward to any updates………..will keep you posted on what I hear.

Bob

Update.....

First, clarification about the 75 and 85 degrees... That wasn't outside temp, that was what I was hoping the system might be able to provide inside.... :-) Outside was a balmy 55. (Eat your heart out..!!) From the sound of it, you might be living in the Dakotas or up in those latitudes.... Too cold for a SoCal boy.....!!!

I was thinking along the same lines you were.... And, I'm thinking I might have to start keeping a logbook of what's going on at the time, lights, wipers, A/C, etc....

Today, it reverted back to its old ways with the temp and fan speed erratic and unpredictable... had to go back to manual operation....

Your suggestion about the ground wire is a good one. And, looking at the BCM and A/C schematics, I see there are several types of grounds that these systems use: BCM-chassis grounds (BCM 20-pin connector, pins 1 and 20) and BCM sensor grounds (BCM C-1 pin 8 and BCM C-3 pin 10). When I can dedicate some time with the ohmmeter, I'll chases each of these and then see if I can't solder in temporary jumpers to ground for the chassis ground connections. For the sensor grounds, they really aren't a "ground" in the sense that they are "common" with the chassis grounds. They are technically signal returns for those circuits. Putting that to chassis ground could adversely affect the systems' operation or damage the BCM. What is interesting about the sensor ground issue is that the A/C system is acting as though the temps are going all over the place and it's chasing them with temp and fan speed variations. This could also be due to an intermittent ground for the system which your suggested jumper might reveal.

One thing that also is happening with the A/C system is that the temp display occasionally goes blank. It may come back in a few minutes or it may not for a longer time. I don't see that as a PCI bus communication failure because I can still control the A/C system manually which would be impossible if the PCI bus were open or shorted to ground.

As far as using a jumper for the hot side, I can pull the fuses individually for the BCM (fuse #s 14 and 19) to see what the system reaction is. I'm guessing that fuse # 19 is essential for system operation and will kill everything if it goes away. That would tell me that a jumper wouldn't be necessary. On the other hand, if pulling fuse doesn't give an immediate, obvious reaction, then using the jumper would be the next step. I'll also go through the same process for the ignition switch controlled fuse, # 14. That one, I suspect is just a "signal" input to tell the system that the system can operate because the ignition is in either run or start.

I really need to find out if there is a schematic for the Junction Block. There's a lot going on inside and going through that beast. Without a schematic, I'm assuming that the only info I need to know is what the other schematics tell me. I'm not built that way. I want to be able to wring out the continuity of all the circuits in it to eliminate it as a suspect.

What I'd really like to have is a full up test bench where I can run a complete systems simulation and verify the correct operation of all components. I've actually considered creating a breakout harness and installing it between the BCM and the Junction Block so I can monitor voltages while it's in operation..... It really wouldn't be too hard; there are only 20 pins involved......

Didn't look for a mfr name on the BCMs. I'll do that when I get home tonight.

Last thought, then I'll sign off for now. Do you know if Chrysler has a technical services office we can tap into that might be able to supply me with more in-depth info regarding the operation of the BCM and things like the schematics for the Junction Block...???? You can see that I'm really on a mission now......

Have you seen any of my Personal Messages...???

Back to work..... Talk later, Sir.... Stay warm....

BG

Hello –

Wow………….55………yes………true envy……….this morning at 05:30….(had the mower with the snow blade on it) cleaning a couple of driveways………..about 3 inches today…….after that……..a root canal at about 07:15………though I was given several gallons of novocain, it was on the right side…….so the logic side of my head shouldn’t be too much affected  Please forgive any drool on the monitor………..one side just isn’t in the game yet…………

Great idea on the log…………..may pin point similar situations……….connections….etc….

The going blank………..I searched around and could not find anything talking about it going blank……….I thought about this last night….on the 94-96 Impala SS’s the speedometer display would go blank and come back on………this was due to a resistor heating up. Eventually they go totally out…………..maybe a random thought…………..but it is there.

Hey, I attached a couple of pics……….not sure if that helps……….

Also, have you tried to let it recalibrate itself?? I thought about that when you replaced it and it did okay……..then went weird again……….just a thought…..

REPAIR PROCEDURE:
1. With the vehicle at room temperature 10 °- 27 °C. (50 °to 80 °F.), remove the M-1 circuit fuse for ten minutes to erase DTCs.
2. Install the M-1 fuse and start the vehicle, this will initiate the HVAC system calibration. Allow approximately five minutes for the calibration to complete.
3. Operate the vehicle and HVAC system to verify that Symptoms and/or DTCs are gone. If tapping noise or Blend Stall/Feedback DTCs re-occur, additional diagnosis will be required.

Chrysler Tech Service………..well, I would ask the dealer…………next……….I attached a site that you ask just Chrysler questions on………now don’t be a trader…….you still gotta keep me informed on the progress here………this is getting to be a sickness……….I woke up last night about 2 am thinking about the display….(the info above)………so you have me and 1000 other readers on the edge of their seat watching this story unfold………I am not sure if you or the car are the main character……….but it is definitely suspenseful.

Yes…..sorry I didn’t respond on the PM……I did get it………thanks…..I should have responded back to let you know…..…..I did send you a snail mail………..it is crossing the frozen tundra heading to sunny CA.

Going to try and stay warm……you bet………….talk to you soon.

Heeyyyyyyy...............!!!

I think you might be holdin' out on me...........!!

The repair manual I purchased from eAutorepair (Mitchell 1) doesn't have any M-1 fuses in it....... And the diagram you included isn't in my manual..... The Mitchell manual does the same thing by telling you to disconnect the battery negative terminal remote terminal.... The Mitchell system doesn't indicate that the ATC will automatically enter the recalibration mode. They tell you to use the ATC "In-vehicle calibration and DTC check".... wondering what kind of super-manual you moderators are "Bogarting" for yourselves.......................

Sorry this has taken on a life of its own and is messing up your life.... I haven't reached the point of it keeping me awake at night, but I do admit to thinking about this a lot most of the rest of the day.

I'm going to pass on the Chrysler help web site. I looked and it's similar to the 2carpros operation, except that you post a question and then a tech will tell you that he'll answer your question for some amount of dollars. Speaking of which, I just kicked a few more $$ into the kitty....

I'll stop by the dealership and see if the service writer is still talking to me and ask if I can find out what kind of manuals they're using. More than likely, they're an electronic system of some kind.

Too pooped to mess with this anymore tonight.....

Buenos noches, amigo....

BG

Well, BG, I stumbled upon that last night…………it would be nice…….maybe it’s just me….but it would be easier if everything for say the ATC was under……..ATC…..everything for water pump was under, water pump……etc

So as you and I discuss different things and I am in and out of our Top Secret :) manuals………I end up stumbling over this M-1 thing….……….

Not messing up my life at all…………glad we can try to assist with this plus……..I get to meet nice people such as yourself. Plus, we hope this helps many other readers with similar problems.

Well, the folks at 2CarPros appreciate the donations………so on behalf of everyone at 2CarPros….thank you very much.

Did you ever get a chance to see if there was a manufacture on the BCMs you had?

Good luck on the service writers……….

You have a good evening and I’ll keep looking around……….good luck on your tests and checks.

Well, I know where to find the "secret" M-1 fuse now.......

In pokin' around the net today (really busy at work as you can tell....) I found one of the other sites that offers help via a similar process that 2carpros uses and found a parallel discussion where the car owner basically said he had looked all over the car for an M-1 fuse and couldn't find it. Well it turns out that the name "M-1 fuse" actually refers to one of the fuses on the Junction Block rated at 10 amps. You know you got it when the radio display goes blank. I'm guessing this is the "always hot" fuse indicated on the BCM schematic.... less hassle this way as compared to removing the battery negative terminal. "Every day is a learning experience...."

I'm very tempted to purchase the Chrysler body diagnostic manual (81-699-97229). I can get it for about $22 plus shipping from an online source. It would be great if the libraries had a technical manuals section where you could just go in, browse, make notes, copy pages, etc, then go home and play with the car. In looking around, I also ran across some Motor Manuals of the same vintage of the Beast. I used to use Motor Manuals all the time "back in the day". The other option is to cave in and order the Chrysler service manual on CD at $90. The problem is, I already know they're going to say, "Now, hook up your scan tool and write down the codes....."

Here's an idea....!!!! We set up a scan tool in your house, interface it with your PC, and you and I can make megabucks from people who'd buy our OBD interface connector that they could hook into a USB cable to their PC and we could then run the scan tool over the net..... WHAT AN IDEA...!!!!... Now, run down to JC Whitney and buy one and we'll be in fat city in no time....!!!!

I'll have the mfr info, if there is any, for the BCMs as soon as I pull into the garage tonight. Probably Nippon Denso.............

Have a good night, Sir.... don't eat too much popcorn.....!!

BG

Hello –

Isn’t that interesting…………you pull the fuse and it goes blank etc……….I am sure you are going to do some poking around in that area………corrosion, ohm a fuse……etc. If I remember correctly from the beginning of this movie…….scene 3 take 4, didn’t you have a minor front end bang up and that is when we thought it may be that sensor on the front?

Did the other information “the pics” help at all or did you have that in your manual??

Funny you say that about the manuals…….there have been many times I have stopped by our library in past years to do just as you said when having to work on some old farm trucks………they have a variety of manuals including the Motor Manuals etc………..

That isn’t a bad deal…………..$22 beans………….I think I paid about $140 dollars for each of my service manuals.………….and yes, you are right on BG………you are flying along thinking you really have it over the guy without the manuals you just paid $140 x 2 for. You bow your chest out, take a long drink of iced tea and turn the page to read step “X”, and there it is…………just like in the horror shows, the lights go on and off, you actually hear the music………and then like you said: You read….."Now, hook up your scan tool and the NASA Apollo 13 Satellite uplink, do all, read all, know all, $460,000 auto machine and write down the codes....."……….then you hear the scream in the night……no wait, that was me……..….But, both manuals make nice book ends because they are so thick 

You are in BG on the scan tool, interface etc………you seem like you are definitely in the know here on the electrical area, so if you don’t mind…………….…make up some special USB cables………..we’ll data link through yours and my computer (2 heads are better……) 50/50 split……….I am on the phone now with JC Whitney…..so hold on! In two weeks you are gonna be able to buy Chrysler and remove all BCMs/ATC from all cars………..

Popcorn……….is it normal to have the butter at least wrist deep?

Thanks for the update!

On again" today..... The ATC was working normally today. Outside temps in the 40s and the inside was a stable temp based on what I set. Go figure.....

A little more than minor..... I was the bologna in a 3 car sandwich..... The insurance company totaled the car, but I had taken such good care of it, they gave me some extra $$$ for its condition. I kicked in another $1800 and had it repaired. We have a really great body shop and you can't tell that the car has ever had a fender bender. Lift the hood and you don't even see overspray or buffing compound. They are first class....

As I recall the problems started at some point after the wreck. The car has also had the dash removed to have the air conditioner evaporator replaced. There's been more than the normal amount of disassembly and reassembly done on the Beast...

The image you included in your posting didn't really help that much because its size is reduced significantly and the resolution is way down. I've tried copying the image and viewing it outside of the posting, but the resolution prevents you from even reading the labels in the image. Thanks for the thought, though.... If we were working from the same manuals, you could just tell me the image you're looking at. In some of the earlier postings, I recognized the images as being from the Mitchell manual I'm using. Those helped me to be sure I was in the right area.

I'm more than willing to buy whatever manual(s) will help me get through this. It's not like I'm going to fix a burned out fuse then sell the car. Not with all I've got invested in it.

Don't you wish we could just slap together a scan tool that's PC based and go into business for ourselves....?!?!?!? Wouldn't that be a hoot...!!??

I'm with you on the popcorn. When the wife and I go to the movie, that's dinner for me. I have a routine where I have to dump out half the popcorn then blend in butter and salt as I add it back to the box. Mmmmmmm......

BCM mfr is not indicated on them outside or inside. I'm guessing they're built for Chrysler by some outfit south of the border and sent to the factory for installation.

Probably won't be able to do anything else with it until the weekend. The rain and evening activities are getting in the way.

If I get a chance, I'll pull Mr. M-1, otherwise known as fuse 19, and see what happens.

More later, Sir....

BG

Hello - On today.........interesting............ Sounds like you have a top notch body shop. You gotta think that you have a pinched, chaffed or damaged wire somewhere in there. Okay, I have two wild thoughts.........see what you think. What if the ATC and BCM are just fine.......how do you feel about taking reading while you drive? I went back and was looking over some wiring diagrams again. The first one you see that fuse 23, Dark Green goes to the ATC. Fuse 17, white wire goes to the ATC also but is probable for lighting.

Now thought one, splice a wire in and put a meter on it and while you drive around you can see what the volts are. If it goes wacky.....you see the reading. Okay, next pic. By the way.....both of these pics are spliced together to make them bigger so there is some goodies that are missing but I didn't think they were important. I just followed the wire we were looking at. Okay, next pic..........the mystery fuse 19. You follow that little red wire guy and it goes from fuse 19 to spice S204. I thought this was interesting....look at what is connected to the splice besides the ATC........yep.....the trunk release switch. Okay, so splice S204 is located on the left side of the dash. I gave you 2 pics of that....a broad pic so you have an idea of the location and then a close up...........it looks like the entire splice is pink wires going to all those different items...........

Me, that is the first place I would go.....I would open that splice are up and see if the ATC and Trunk Release wire are chaffed, touching etc somewhere up and down that area and follow those wires as long as I could. Let me know if the images are not good enough for you........I will find other ways to get them bigger or to you. Who knows, maybe I could blow them up, fax them to the local Chrysler dealership and............okay....maybe not. Really though...let me know and we will figure something else out. Here is the pics from the last time...blown up more.

Yes on the scan tool.........it would be nice to have a extra long USB, you hook it to your DTC and to your PC and hit scan. In moments it comes back with info like: "¢ Broken wire - between tail light and spice 134 "¢ Bank 1 forward O2 sensor is starting to go bad.... "¢ Throttle Position Sensor needs to be replaced. "¢ # 3 Spark plug is bad. You bet on the popcorn. I think you should always have a little popcorn with your butter.

Let me know what you think?

On again.... off again.....

I had two different periods where the ATC was working as advertised. One was for the entire trip to work (23 miles) and the other was for a majority of the trip home. At about the half-way point, it went off the deep end and I went manual mode. On an errand, it worked fine. Coming home from the errand it immediately went bonkers.... There's no particular operations that stand out where it was working right vs. not. In one case it was daytime; in the other it was dark.

You may be right on the pinched or chaffed wire. As intermittent as the problem is, the front end damage it's experienced, and the removal of the dash, that's how it's acting....

As far as the S204 concept, I can check that out, next time I'm under the dash. I've been thinking the same thing about monitoring the voltage in various circuits. Regarding the loss of voltage to the trunk release circuit, I've already ruled that out. I have voltage on the pink wire at the switch and through the switch back to the junction block. What I haven't done yet is remove the junction block and check continuity through it for the various circuits. I'm pretty sure that at an earlier point I've confirmed the voltage was available through the switch and back to C-1 pin 1, which goes directly into the BCM. If the power is operating correctly from the fuse through the switch and back into the BCM and it doesn't release the trunk that says BCM to me. Especially if I can open the trunk with the key fob. This entire circuit will get closely scrutinized this weekend.

I was able to copy your response out during my reply and pasted it into a Word document. In Word, I'm able to expand the images and see what it is you're talking about. Can you please tell me what manual system you're using....????

Well, again, it's late and I'm running out of steam.

Thanks for hanging in, Bob... When we get this puppy figured out and the mystery is solved, I'll buy you your favorite box of popcorn...... :-)

Take care, Sir....

BG

Hello –

BG

You are up late………..

Well……..if there is any good news in all this at least it is intermittent where as before if I remember correctly it wasn’t.

The shop manual I am using is Chrysler’s Top Secret total car care break down of the 1998 Concord, LXI………just kidding of course……the is buried underground at the Pentagon in a guarded vault surrounded by 3 war heads……….nuclear of course……….

Okay…..maybe not……….I’ll tell but you gotta promise not to tell anyone! Mitchell 1 computer program……….thus the promo add at the bottom of each response..."Manuals for your car: https://www.2carpros.com/kpages/auto_repair_manuals.htm "

I usually drop things onto Power point………that way I can crop, etc………..

As you Sir………it’s late and I am out of steam……………

Popcorn…………................looking forward to it………

Bob

Just about had it with the Mitchell1 Manual system....

I looked at the trunk release issue again this afternoon and still have questions.....

The power from fuse 19 (M-1 is visible below the fuse on its raised mount..!!) is available from the fuse itself, through the junction block and connector C4 pin 8 to the trunk release switch and then to the BCM connector C1 pin 1. I checked continuity of the circuit as well as looking at the availability of power throughout the circuit. On the surface it would seem to definitely be the BCM since I have a signal in from the switch but no response from the BCM. Only problem is this is a logic circuit not just a simple switched circuit. The system will only unlock the trunk if it senses that the transmission is in Park. That is not shown on the Mitchell1 manual's schematic. This information comes from the Owner's Manual.

I'm ready to ditch the Mitchell manuals and fork over the bucks for Chrysler maintenance manuals or another system that tells me the entire story. If I went entirely on what is in the Mitchell system, I'd be replacing the BCM for this problem. I have until Jan 5 to make a final decision on this and either keep and use a BCM I received or return them for credit. If I finally reach my limits and decide to just live with the non-auto ATC, I can rig a diode to pass the power around the BCM and direct to the circuit going to the trunk release solenoid. I'd much rather locate the real problem and fix it, but there may come a time where I decide it's not worth the headache, especially if I can't get a manual that will tell me all that I need to know about the system. :-(

Thoughts...???

BG