This is for Saturntech9

2001 SATURN SL1

206,000 MILES

JF781981

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Sorry for the confusion.

I started having idling and running issues recently. I could get it started right away, but if I shut it off and tried to start it again it would take a while. I found on this forum you had mentioned on many topics that the coolant temperature sensor is common to go out. I decided to replace that AND my valve cover gasket at the same time. After I replaced both, original issues are done. Although it is now kicking 2 codes a P0172 Too rich code and P0410 secondary air injector code. This evening I had to replace the valve cover gasket because the original permatex was not beaded well, so I have that put back on, and I replaced both hoses going to the valve cover. What I am wondering is, I will start the car tomorrow night and see if these codes come back.. But if they do, what else can it be? Also I noticed this evening when I was checking lines and everything that there is a sensor that screws into the air filter housing under the front of the car by the front. Looks like another Coolant temperature sensor but that looks corroded. Is this a temp sensor also or what is it called and can it cause one or both codes? these codes never came on until after I replaced the temp sensor and the valve cover gasket so I am confused. I have replace the valve cover gasket before and there is nothing to it, so I am wondering why these codes kick on. When I run the car it shifts smoothly, but if I am at a speed for a while..say 50 and I decide to slowly go to 55-60, sometimes the car now acts like it is gasping for air?? odd for me. I dont know. Any help is great. So far these are what I have replaced recently. Plugs/Wires, temp sensor, air filter, and fuel filter

Feb 27, 2012 at 6:15 AM

SATURNTECH9

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So when you replaced the coolant temp sensor you inspected the inside of the connector for the terminals being blue or green instead of silver?Also when you do a cold start can you hear the air injection pump come on for a short time and then shut off?Do you have a scan tool that can read live engine data?The sensor you are asking about in the air box is the air inlet temp sensor its the exact same sensor as the coolant temp sensor.It doesnt have anything to do with ethier code you have.Do you have a hand vacuum pump to help diagnose the P0420 code?So the engine runs good now except the engine gaspes for air at about 50 mph when stepping on the gas?Also did you keep your old coolant temp sensor?Did you make sure you routed the spark plug wires from the coils to the spark plugs correctly?Also what not type of spark plugs did you install not platnium plugs i hope?Heres what i recomend for your valve cover gasket get the felpro pre molded rubber gasket they work perfect i have used then before.All you do is scrape out all the old silicone and install it.

Feb 27, 2012 at 4:27 PM

JF781981

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Yes I did, although I went ahead and replaced it anyways today. As for the pump, yes it kicks on and runs for a little bit then shuts off. I have a scan tool but not live data. I do not have a hand vaccuum tool dont have a clue what that is. I did not keep the old sensor, when i replaced it the car ran 1000 times better. As for spark plugs no issues there, whenever I replace them I only do one at a time so I dont have to mess with checking firing order. I dont remember the kind of spark plugs honestly. and for the gasket, ive already done the kit stuff I bought, no autopart store had it near me and would have been days.. trust me id rather have the molded one.. NOW FOR THE FUN PART WHICH MAKES ME WANT TO BLOW UP THE CAR. Since I replaced the cooling sensor plug this evening now I have a damn P0112 code. I have taken it apart and re spliced several times with no luck removing the code. Also I replaced that air inlet temp sensor with a bone yard one this evening.. With it being corroded, I didnt want to keep it much longer. I dont know what to do anymore, I keep fixing one code and another pops up. Any ideas?

Feb 28, 2012 at 12:26 AM

SATURNTECH9

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You need to take the plugs out and see if there platnuim plugs if they are replace them with stock copper plugs.The platnuim plugs carbon foul in the those engines.Also make sure all the spark plug gaps are set at. 040" like there supposed to be.I will look into the code P0112 and get you a touble tree.A scanner that reads live data on that car is only about 50 on amazon.

Feb 28, 2012 at 1:15 AM

JF781981

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OK THIS IS WHAT IS GOING ON NOW. I replaced the sensors with brand new ones.. the P0112 code is gone and at the moment the secondary air code is gone too. back to the air too rich code P0172. gaps are at .40 like they are supposed to be. BUT just finally found my receipt and I see I bought bosch platinum plus spark plugs. wont have money to get those replaced til friday. would the spark plugs cause the rich air code?

Feb 28, 2012 at 2:37 AM

JF781981

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52 POSTS

was also just thinking and wondering/ one the fuel filer how you have the one line on one side and 2 lines on the other side. if the two lines were accidently on the wrong posts, would that cause that sensor to go off? I have changed a lot of filters on vehicles but this is the first time I had a filter like this, trying to figure out if i might have put the lines on the wrong posts. what do you think?

Feb 28, 2012 at 2:55 AM

SATURNTECH9

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The hoses are different lengths it would be hard to mix the two hoses up and if memory serves correct there different sizes.If you did mix them up it wont run or run well at all.Those bosch platnuim are bad news for those engines how many miles have you had those plugs in for?

Feb 28, 2012 at 4:46 AM

JF781981

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Miles i dont know been in for a few weeks I will be able to get different ones tomorrow. any chance those are what is throwing the code?

Feb 28, 2012 at 2:24 PM

SATURNTECH9

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Its possible they could be but i think they would throw missfire codes first.I would stick with the ngk copper plugs like the car came with.

Feb 28, 2012 at 6:54 PM

JF781981

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replaced plugs today went to autozone and argued with them. they claim copper did not comew ith those cars BUT gave me copper and i gave them the old ones. still throwing the 2 codes. im clueless trying to figure it out.. still getting secondary air injecter and air too rich code.. any other ideas. so now I finally have the correct plugs in the car

Feb 28, 2012 at 8:05 PM

SATURNTECH9

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The S model saturns never came factory with platnuim plugs so i wonder where they got there info from.Saturn didnt start using platnuim plugs till there L model saturns.To diagnose your code P0420 were going to need a hand vacuum pump.Have you checked your fuel pressure at idle yet?If so what is the fuel pressure reading?

Feb 29, 2012 at 1:53 AM

JF781981

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I dont have a vaccum pump OR any way to check fuel pressure. I will have to somehow come up with something on that.. JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY Both of these codes WORSE CASE SENARIO, is the car safe to drive? I realize the air prob is probably eating gas, but do we have to worry about the car breaking down? We are low on money now and will need to wait a little bit before we continue to put more money in the car. Just wish I knew what was going on.. these damn codes didnt even come on until I replaced that darn sensor so I hate to think thats what is causing it, but I dont know what to do. I took apart that valve by the air pump and cleaned it of the carbon hoping to fix some issues with no luck still the malfunction code.. Wonder if the plug connected to it is bad??

Mar 1, 2012 at 3:02 AM

SATURNTECH9

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The P0420 isnt going to leave you stranded its caused mostly by three things a bad combo valve bad wires to the air injection solenoid or clogged ports in the head.As far as checking fuel pressure you rent a fuel pressure gauge at auto zone for free.

Mar 1, 2012 at 3:18 AM

JF781981

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K thanks for letting me know on the renting one at autozone. I was thinking of trying to get a secondary system from a bone yard including all the vaccum lines leading to the throttle body hoping that fixes it. I appreciate the help here I will do the autozone thing prob friday. Ill keep you updated. What fuel pressure range am I looking for?

Mar 1, 2012 at 3:28 AM

SATURNTECH9

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Lets not change the secondary air system we will figure that out later.The fuel pressure should be 45-50psi we are looking for too high of pressure causing the rich code.You said you replaced the fuel filter which one did you install i need a brand and part number?Also did you change it before or after the rich code?

Mar 1, 2012 at 3:41 AM

JF781981

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I replaced it with a FF897DL Az Filters/Fuel Filter from autozone. 42.99. I changed it before the rich code but that code did not show until after I replaced the coolant sensor recently. The fuel filter was changed about a month ago roughly. These last 2 codes have all been within the last couple weeks and both after I replaced the sensor

Mar 1, 2012 at 4:00 AM

JF781981

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also forgot to mention, while I was at autozone the other day, he hooked up his computer with the live data. When I was revving the car the he said the numbers were high for the rich code but when I stopped revving the numbers were all over the place. does that help any?

Mar 1, 2012 at 4:06 AM

JF781981

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HEY JUST MIGHT HAVE FOUND THE ISSUE!!! Let me know what you think. There is a hose that connects to the left side of the intake next to the power steering pump It goes across the car by the firewall and connects by the master cylinder. when feeling around the house feels chewed up. .I have not disconneceted it yet, but I will be doing so soon to look at it. . can this cause the problems?

Mar 1, 2012 at 4:34 AM

SATURNTECH9

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Depending on the size of the vacuum leak it is possible.Keep me posted on what the brake booster vacuum hose looks like.Also if the hose is colasping it can cause issues also.

Mar 1, 2012 at 4:52 AM

JF781981

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52 POSTS

well it looks pretty chewed up. got it off.. going to cut the bad off just for now and try to route it and see what happens. thats if I can find a better hose clamp around here I have many but that one is pretty messed up too. it looked pretty bad for about 3 inches just below the clamp. enough to not be able to tell if its all the way through, but I have enough gas once I get it going ill hit the hwy for alittle while ill let you know in the morning what I find out

Mar 1, 2012 at 4:54 AM

SATURNTECH9

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Alright also did you ever check for a vacuum leak on the number one intake port where the intake gasket seals the head to the intake manifold right by the power steering pump?I have replaced a ton of those single cam S model intake gaskets leaking on the 2000-2002 saturns.Its a very common issue on those cars.

Mar 1, 2012 at 5:17 AM

JF781981

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No I had not.. Will do in the morning.. As of now, only code popping is the too rich code. I drove it for like 40 minutes.. The hose could also be too short ill try to see if I can get one tomorrow. since I lose about 4 inches total it needs to stretch to connect to the master cylinder side possibly not having snug fit against the wall. I called autozone before they closed and tehy told me they do not rent those gages at their particular store so tomorrow ill try to call a few other autozones in the area. I will check that port tomorrow morning! Thanks

Mar 1, 2012 at 5:54 AM

SATURNTECH9

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Let the car idle and spray some carb spray around the intake ports if the idle goes up down stumbles or dies.Then you have a vacuum leak.when the intake gaskets leak you can usually see the gasket wrinkled up.If you have a oriellys in your area i think they rent the fuel pressure testers also.

Mar 1, 2012 at 6:00 AM

JF781981

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if that is the case, will the whole intake gasket have to be replaced?

Mar 1, 2012 at 6:02 AM

JF781981

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ok well curiosity got the best of me, went outside and tried that..no difference in the idling when sprayed on the different ports.. I started at the one closest to pthe power steering pump and worked my way back and forth a couple different times.. now if I need to check any other leaks ill get more carb spray for that. hopefully I can find someone that will let me rent a tester tomorrow or friday. Since at this time the code for the secondary injector has not come on yet, do you think that hose I messed with migth have fixed that?

Mar 1, 2012 at 6:15 AM

SATURNTECH9

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I would say no since your still getting the rich code.Did you happen to move the wires going to the air injection solenoid on top of the ac compressor before you cleared the codes?Also that code diagnostic only runs on cold starts so lets see if it comes back after a couple of cold starts.Keep me posted when you get the fuel pressure.

Mar 1, 2012 at 6:25 AM

JF781981

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ok sounds good.. No I did not mess with the plug on the ac compressor. do you want me to play with it and check for broken wires?

Mar 1, 2012 at 6:27 AM

SATURNTECH9

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No dont mess with it yet we will need that hand vacuum pump to help diagnose the broken wires.You really cant see the wires broken because the copper wire breaks inside the insullation from vibration over time.Lets get the rich code figured out first then we will tackle the P0420 code.

Mar 1, 2012 at 6:34 AM

JF781981

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thats fine. I figured thats what you were doing but you asked about it so I assumed it had something to do with this rich problem.

Mar 1, 2012 at 6:38 AM

SATURNTECH9

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That code doesnt create a rich code we will get into the secondary air injection how it works componets etc later.Let me know what the fuel pressure is when you get it.

Mar 1, 2012 at 6:46 AM

JF781981

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I plan on it! Thanks a bunch!

Mar 1, 2012 at 6:47 AM

SATURNTECH9

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Your welcome thats what were here for.

Mar 1, 2012 at 6:58 AM

JF781981

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OK so went this morning and checked the pressure. It is bouncing between 55 and 60. Not like I believe this matters but just incase...When I relieved the pressure on the gauge it would drop to 35. Not sure if it means anything to you. But I see that is is about 10 pounds more than you said it should be. So whats the next step?

Mar 2, 2012 at 3:10 PM

SATURNTECH9

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The fuel pressure is supposed to be 40-55psi so its within specs.Follow the info on what i just posted also remove the map sensor and make sure there is no carbon blocking the hole in the intake or on the map sensor.Also inspect the map sensors oring seal.

Images (Click to enlarge)

Mar 2, 2012 at 8:11 PM

JF781981

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which one is the map sensor? is that the one on the left top of intake?

Mar 2, 2012 at 8:37 PM

SATURNTECH9

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On the top of the intake by the power steering pump is the map sensor.There is a green connector going to it would be on the passenger side of the engine compartment.There is two small bolts holding it in place.

Mar 2, 2012 at 8:55 PM

JF781981

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Thanks I get home late tonight so I will do as much as possible and forward you the results tomorrow

thanks

Mar 2, 2012 at 9:39 PM

SATURNTECH9

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Alright keep me posted.

Mar 2, 2012 at 9:48 PM

JF781981

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Ok this is what I have for now...

I took off the EGR Valve and cleaned it (plunger thing appears to move a little easier now)

I took off Map sensor and cleaned that..(had a little black liquid around the seal.. assumed it was dirty carb cleaner from when checking for vaccuum leaks)

I also took off the fuel rail to see if any of my injectors were leaking.. which none were.

I went ahead and sprayed more carb cleaner and came across a spot where the engine would rev. this happened two different times in about 45 minutes. (I tried twice just incase of a fluke. ended up being the plastic piece that goes on top of the throttle body with the two lines one that leads towards the check valve by the air pump and one behind the engine.. Do you know what it is called? If not ill just search the junk yards to see if I can get another one..

This is what I have.. As of cleaning, I drove around for an hour and no rich code has popped up as of now. I am not going to get too excited yet.. Its late and ill go for a ride tomorrow. Obviously you said the other code is a cold start code so I will let you know what happens. ALTHOUGH I still ahve that gasping hiccup type thing when I try to speed up at times.. I dont know which code would be more likely to be the culprit on that, but I was wondering as for the vacuum leak on the throttle body thing.. Would that cause the secondary air injector code since it connects to that check valve? Or would it be the other code? I am starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel.. Well as long as I dont get both codes lol. I will be happy with one at a time.. What do you think

Mar 3, 2012 at 6:58 AM

SATURNTECH9

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I dont know the proper name for the hoses that go on the side of the valve body.One hose goes to the air injection solenoid and the other hose to the canister purge solenoid.I would guess vacuum hose assembly or vacuum hose spider?That leak i would say wouldnt cause the air injection code but maybe the rich code.Also did you check the intake gasket for leaking vacuum especailly around the number 1 intake port by the power steering pump?Those engines are known for leaking there.

Mar 3, 2012 at 5:18 PM

JF781981

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yes I checked that. No leaks around there I did that the other night and last night. But the no codes were short lived. both came back on today. I am going to see if there is a boneyard nearby with any saturns that I can try to remove that assembly from . hopefully that changes the code. I am close to giving up cleaning it out and putting a for sale sign on it :/ I will let you know what happens with that part

Mar 3, 2012 at 5:25 PM