1998 Honda Civic Transmission Flare

If all things fails, try using Royal Purple oil for a change. I came across a CRV owner who had shifting problems that were similar and after usng Royal Purple transmission fluids, it seems the problem was resolved.

That would be safer than the tablespoon of brake fluid I was thinking of.

rivermikerat, I'll do the test when I can. This weekend put OEM cruise in my other DX so that took up several hours. I'm assuming you're looking to see if 3rd clutch is bad by low pressure?
KHLow2008, I may try the royal purple after the pressure test and figuring out if the PCM is sending bad signals or not. Is Royal Purple more viscous or something? Could you explain what exactly the CRV was doing? I'm curious to see what connections there are because I think some of the CRV's used the A4RA 4-speed also?
bgorpy, Thanks for your support. This has been quite an experience and I feel like I know almost everything about the car except how the inside of the transmission looks! I don't have any plans on giving up as I have two cars doing identical things. It's good to know now that a Civic EX, V-tec stock from factory with the B4RA transmission can have the same problem. I'm wondering in our case also if the CPC vavle spring may have lost part of a coil thus causing low pressure problems? One thing I would like to know is someone who has this problem and had the car before it started doing it, is if it happened immediately or if the flare came on slowly?

The CRV was doing intermittent flaring and at times harsh shifting.

ihbigred, You are welcome! I am a little confused by your comment about " a Civic EX, V-tec stock from the factory with a B4RA transmission..." I thought my 1996 EX came with the A4RA. Is the B4RA only used with the V-tec engines? Also, what does CPC stand for(constant pressure control?)? Thanks!

KHLow2008, thanks, but what about the royal purple, what is the difference between it than the Honda ATF besides one being synthetic?

bgorpy, Sorry, in 97 they came out with a different 4-speed along with the A4RA and i forgot yours was a 96. CPC stands for clutch pressure control. the spring is for the CPC valve in the tranny and is known to fail due to stress.

Honda did have some problems with their transmission. No doubt thay had their own recommended brand and it could possibly be that their transmission fluids are not as good as it should be so Royal Purple is an alternative that could work .

Read thru all of this posting. I have a 98 Honda CRV with the same flaring issue. This don't happen when the engine is cold or car has been sitting for a while, also doesn't happen when I floor the gas. Didn't seem to happen over the winter too, as Missouri weather is cold, but then again I had a open thermostat so engine was running cold (after replacement I didn't notice it). Anyway its getting warmer here again and I have seen the symptoms come back again, esp. if the engine is in normal operating temperature. I have been driving the CRV like this for almost 3 years (since 116,00 bought used); and yet to find a solution.

Things I've done which will relate to this:
DRAIN & FILL 4X w/HG Fluids
Inspect/Clean solenoids
Replace thermostat
Flushed Radiator
Timing belt/water pump
PLUGS/WIRES...

Anyways, GOod to know I am not alone with this problem. and thank you!
1998 HONDA CRV 135000

kmomotaro, Thanks for the input. I don't plan to stop until I find the problem because no one else has found it yet and I'd like there to be at least one thread with the answer to this problem.
I have recently found a friend who I think has a 97 Civic DX that doesn't have this flaring problem, at least he says he doesn't. He gave me permission to have full access to it in which I plan to pull information, run tests, swap out parts and see if anything I do external to the transmission will make it act up. I'll update on this when I have a chance to play with his car.

I hope both of you guys come back and post your final results when you figure this out. As you can see, it has many of us here stumped and I, for one, would love to see what fixes this.

I've built a gauge that I can have attached the the transmission while driving down the road to test pressures at shift points. I just need to get my car back as my brother has been borrowing it for the past few weeks. Thinking more about this, it's a warm condition as kmomotaro has reiterated. Things that happen when the overall temperature of the car is warmer is that the transmission fluid is thinner, the ECT sensor sends a lower resistance to the ECM, seals soften up and become more pliable. Resistance in wires increases (even if minimal it's still a suspect. Components expand. Just food for thought to maybe provoke an idea??

It could be a valve that's leaking at higher temps, due to the thinner trans fluid.

Kinda what I thought about the CPC valve that I mentioned earlier on. I've heard that the spring can lose a coil or more after use and wondered if that valve in particular could cause this problem only from second to third?

That's something that I can't answer. I'm not a transmission specialist. We don't have anyone with that type of in-depth transmission specialist knowledge.

If the CPC valve is faulty, you would be getting the problem all the time, either cold or at operating temperature.

For transmission, actually the reverse is true of slipping. They tend to slip when cold and works well at operating temperature as pressure losses are reduced when components and seals heats up and expands.

Yours is slipping only when at operating temperature which is the reverse and I would lean towards a sensor fault. Sensors could be sending signals that are interpreted too slowly or slightly out of range and this could be a fault of the PCM or its software.

TPS, ECT, VSS, Linear solenoid, shift solenoids are all possible fault areas.

KHLow2008
That's kind of where I've been leaning the whole time with this car. I haven't been able to take shift pressures yet because of working on a Powerstroke engine miss and working on the other civic I converted over to V-tec. Which is interesting. So I had updated earlier on in this thread that when I finished converting the other civic to V-tec that the shift flare persisted....well it did, but now it has stopped! The only things I switched were some pin out locations on the wiring harness to match the PCM, the PCM and the Intake manifold. I'm gonna say I may have a combination issue with this car. I had replaced the PCM with other used PCM's but never a known good one. So I'm gonna go find a known good one and try this out. Second reason I believe this is because what KHLow just mentioned above, and secondly I just finished working on a 2000 Accord with delayed shifting and hard shifts and hot soak issues. Swapped out engine and tranny for known good 2002 drivetrain and still had issues. So swapped 2000 PCM with 2002 good unit and wallah! No more shifting or hot soak issues! So I'm gonna bet my money that this is either only a PCM issue or combination PCM and linear solenoid because I've heard that one can knock the other out.

For the newer models, updating the PCM might solve the problem.

Yeah, I would agree and I actually contacted Honda about reflashing my PCM and they informed me that these PCM's can not be reflashed. So I guess the only option to update is with a new PCM or known good one. Also I wanted to let kmomotaro and bgorpy know that someone wanted to buy my car regardless of it having this problem. I've ended up selling my problem car and no longer have it at my disposal to do tests on but I am friends with the individual and if I find a good PCM I'm going to swap it out and see what the results are. Please keep this thread updated with what you all do. I'd like to know the fix for this!!

I think most of us would really like to know the fix for this. I know I do.

ihbigred, rivermikerat, KHLow2008 - I have still not solved the flaring issue on my 96 ex. I was hoping that ihbigred was going to have an answer. After re-reading through this thread, I was wondering if it was possible to set up a band-aid fix using the potentiometer that was mentioned in ihbigred's earlier posr where the flare issue was eliminated when the coolant sensor was pushed down to 150 ohms. My questions are these: 1 - what would have to be done to duplicate the results in ihbigred's January 27, 2012 posting? 2 - If this was used as a way to resolve the flare issue, would this cause any other problems to be concerned about? I would appreciate any expert opinions. It seems that if I used a potentiometer and changed the resistance of the ECT ( as ihbigred did) after the car warmed up, I could eliminate the flare issue. Again, any expert opins are appreciated!

I couldn't tell you honestly what would happen or might happen. It might fix the issue in the short run, but it may cause other problems over time as well.

bgorpy, I believe from my research that the linear solenoid is a variable position solenoid controlled by the PCM. My guess is that for some reason there is a bad set of voltages going to it and by me tricking the computer reading a different temperature then that solenoid is being held in a slightly different position. I have looked into building a "Black Box" that would contain the circuitry to bypass the ECT sensor when it got to a specific resistance and then if the car really got "hot" then allow the ECT to take back over, or whenever the car cooled back down the ECT would gain control again. But I have not had time to sit down and go through the circuit theory. One thing I did not like about the potentiometer is that if the car sat and cooled down it had to be removed so the car could start because of fuel/air mixture cold start purposes. Kind of became a nuisance! I wish you lived close so we could try my EX PCM out on your car. Because I continue to stick with it being a PCM issue as I have found it to be the problem on the 98-02 Accord shift problems. I agree with rivermikerat, it could cause issues later on down the line not knowing where that solenoid should be positioned, but that 150 ohms was basically right when I got the shift flaring to stop, so I personally would run it that way until I got a good computer to test out, or every time it came time to shift from 2nd to 3rd just let of the accelerator until it shifted then continue with your acceleration process.

I'd seriously be surprised if anyone at a dealership or transmission specialty repair shop would be able to give a 100% accurate answer to the question of what other problems this "work-around" may cause in the long run. As far as electrical theory is concerned, I don't see any issues. It's when you get into the lines of programming code, hydraulics, etc where I get lost.

ihbigred, check out this site it might help.
http://www.hondasuv.com/members/showthread.php?t=57575

Wow. This thread is STILL Active after all these months. Amazing.

Thiang,
I read over the thread you posted and I never checked the TPS for resistances that were out of wack. Not going to rule that out, but why would a car that I worked on with a non-vtec shift flare, but once I changed the PCM to a vtec PCM the flare went away. I'm assuming that was not a TPS issue.

Rivermikerat,
Usually threads stay active that usually have no answers...looks like it still has yet to be satisfied. Still want to hear from the other people who posted as to what they've done to improve their rides

I agree, ihbigred. I just figured that after this long, the issue would have been resolved. I also remember, vaguely, without reading through all of the latter posts, that you acquired another vehicle and somewhat gave up on this issue.

Yes, I actually sold the problem vehicle. But it was to someone I know so I have access to it if I think of another solution. I may try the TPS out next time I see the car. But, if I come across another one, I'm going to keep chasing it.

Ok. I was hoping I was right. I'd hate to think my memory was that bad. Hope you finally figure it out. I'm at a loss now.

I had the same exact problem with my 98 Civic EX 4-door. If you are a purist you won't like my answer, but here's what fixed it. The TPS went bad, so I replaced it with an aftermarket (Dorman). Since the new TPS had bolts that could be loosened, unlike the factory TPS, there is a small range of adjustment on the new TPS. I rotated it slightly so it appears to the computer that the throttle is open slightly more than it really is. That resolved 99 percent of the flaring. It took me several tries to get the adjustment right, and shifts are often at higher RPMs than before, but overall I am much happier!

Interesting that "advancing" the sensor caused the shifting flare to dissolve mostly. Makes me believe even more that it's a PCM issue being that we have been able to resolve the flare by "tricking" the computer of what really is occuring.

Well I agree it is a PCM issue, but what are the chances of getting THAT fixed, since apparently these computers are not reflashable? I program computers for a living, and I'd love to get my hands on the code for this computer, but again what are the chances? My car acted as if there were two separate computer events: one telling the transmission to disengage 2nd gear at about 2600 RPM, and the second telling it to engage 3rd at 3000 RPM, so the flare happened over the 400 RPM range from 2600 to 3000. Under harder but still moderate acceleration, the "disengage 2nd gear" event was delayed until 3000 RPM and there was no flare. So that gave the the idea (after several years!) to fake out the computer by tweaking the TPS to simulate harder acceleration. Strangely enough, it not only raised the RPM for "disengage 2nd" but seemed to lower the RPM for "engage 3rd". Bringing the two together made it all better.

I'm intrigued by the earlier poster who got good results by using a potentiometer to simulate lower resistance (higher coolant temperature) at the ECT sensor. A jumper between the two sensor leads, with the proper resistor, could (I think) change the resistance of the sensor circuit appropriately. Again, it's a way to fake out the computer, but it sounds like it could give cleaner results than the TPS adjustment. Guess I'll have to do some direct-current-physics research to find the proper resistor -- high school physics is pretty far behind me now, so I think it can be done but I don't remember the equations!

Oops, sorry ihbigred, I see the "earlier poster" with the potentiometer was you. I had only skimmed the thread and I missed the problem about cold starts with the potentiometer installed. According to my shop manual, 150 ohms represents a very hot engine, coolant at 212 degrees or higher. Also since the ECT sensor does not respond straight-line to coolant temp, my simple idea of a parallel resistor in the circuit probably would not work -- I still have to think that through.... 1/R = 1/R1 + 1/R2 ....

Resistance in a parallel circuit = (R1)(R2)/R1+R2

rberq,

I'm glad someone else has gone to some steps to try and resolve this! Yes, sadly an in series or paralell resister would not resolve the problem due to cold starts, but! if someone was willing to do some circuitry they could create a cool little black box to change the resistance at operating temperature! I'm an engineer with some minor background in circuitry, but I am elbow deep in grease with my V10 automatic conversion to Cummins diesel w/ manual transmission :) With this box someone could either post how to make it, or make some pocket change on the side. I got the same result seeing the engine was running "hot" by seeing the resistance to temperature curves for the cts sensors.

FourOur,

I went to the website and browsed a bit, but am not sure if you're suggesting we buy some diagnostic tools???

FourOur is a spammer and he is history now.

It's sad that some people don't know how to make a good honest living.

Thanks for resolving that KHLow

You're welcome.

I have the same issue. Anyone consider a worn out transmission ?? Your trans is slipping due to wear. Even a Honda wears out.

Thanks for the input and I had considered that, but if you will read through the entire thread you will read that we were able to remove the problem flair in two ways: 1. Trick the car into thinking it is running warmer than actual and, 2. Changing the ecm to a vtec model and doing the "minime" conversion. I've never personally seen a transmission that was worn out act like this. Maybe you can shed some light on which component is worn?