96 Plym Voyager gas in oil not starting gas and spark presen

definitely a fuel ctrl problem....do this--> place a pressure gage at the fuel testing port ...key on engine off ---> watch the fuel pressure ..it gotta be more than 30 psi --> then key off ...let see if it will hold a residual pressure ..if it doesn't ..then it means somehow ur in between ur injectors and ur return is leaking...how ,why and where --> msg me after ur do the test....

There is no fuel testing port ...(on the supply line or fuel rail) Do they make a pressure tester that hooks into the gas line at the quick connect? There is a service port on the return line that says -->"EVAP SERVICE PORT. 1PSI MAXIMUM. REGULATED PRESSURE ONLY." But i cannot test for 30 psi at this point, right? I unhooked the return line at the end of the fuel rail, keyed on and off several times then cranked for 10 to 15 seconds, no fuel what so ever at this point. I unhooked the fuel line at the quick connect supply side keyed on and have lots of fuel at this point. I will try to find a pressure tester that will hook up inline.

EVAP is another systemm..what size motor?...there's 4 different motor....msg me when u get some answer...of course there is everything to tap into the system...i doubted u wanna spend $400 for a 1/2 behind professional tester kit...msg me back...

3.0 V6, i cannot see that it has a return fuel line then.is there a pressure regulater somewhere on the engine?

could this 3.0 V6 engine 96 plymoth voyager be a returnless fuel system with the pressure regulated at the pump with a pressure sensor that could be malfunctioning. And if so wouldn't it throw some trouble codes if the sensor is bad?

3 .0 should have a schrader vale which u can tap a pressure gage in there..it is a return system...it is on the supply side on the injector rail ....do what i suggest and msg me if u have some result..

Using the following test procedure I had a 12V test light on the injector harness of 1 injector it did not flash, maybe a small pulsation but the light was constant on, maybe the computer is sending fuel to all injectors all time? Still waiting on as pressure tester. And this is a returnless system.

TESTING

Unplug the injector electrical connector.

Using an ohmmeter, test the injector resistance across the injector terminals. The reading should be approximately 12 ohms at 68°F (20°C).

If the resistance falls outside specifications, replace the faulty injector.

If the resistance is within specifications, proceed with the testing.

Place a 12 volt test lamp across the injector's electrical connector terminals. Watch the test lamp while cranking the engine and compare with the following:

If the test lamp does not flash, check the power feed and ground circuits between the PCM and the injector connector. Refer to the wiring diagrams in Chassis Electrical for wire colors. If the circuits are faulty, repair them. If the circuits are OK, test the engine control system using the Chrysler DRB, or equivalent scan tool.

If the test lamp flashes, proceed with the testing.

Check for fuel delivery at the suspect injector by removing the injector from the fuel rail and check for fuel and/or restrictions in the rail or injector fuel inlet. Compare your results with the following:

If there is no fuel present at the injector, replace the plugged injector, or clean the restricted passage, as necessary.

If there is fuel present at the injector, proceed with the testing.

With the injector removed from the fuel rail, connect a 12 volt source to one terminal on the injector connector and a ground wire to the other terminal. The injector should click each time the ground wire is connected and disconnected to and from the terminal.

If the injector clicks, it is OK. If it does not click, it must be replaced.

4got to tell u remove all spark plugs,,disable ignition and injectors crank engine to dry out..then change oil b4 restart ..cuz u wash all oil into the cylinder and now u lose compression...do a residual test and if it holds up...FIRE IT RIGHT AWAY.... ur car should start ...ifit doesn't hold pressure..u gotta find the leak...HEEEEEE HAWWWWW

Ok I finally found and bought a pressure tester that hooks inline, Ok it pressures up to 45 to 52 with key on. Cranking it pulsates a little 7 to 10 psi variance. ----with pressure at 50 (key on once), (then key off and wait) it blead off 4 psi in 20 to 25 minutes. no leaks that i can see. Can you explain again in a different way about the oil washing into the cylinder and losing compression. How do I disable the fuel injectors, the plugs are to hard to reach just to unpulg them.

[quote:cbfe5d7952="knightscbr"]96 voyager 3.0 engine has good spark getting fuel, but does not even act like it will start, plugs are wet with fuel when pulled like it is flooded. It has fuel in the oil. After 3 seconds of cranking the fuel will ignite in the oil filling hole with a lighter. Not 100% sure if timing is dead on or if compression levels are low. It was running fine parked it for 3 or 4 days (cold weather) then it would not start. Could it possibly be computer it only had 2 codes 12 and 14. Or is this an injector problem?[/quote:cbfe5d7952]

Washed up cylinders-check the compression or do a leakdown test to confirm leakage or do the vacuum gauge technique

What is the vaccum gauge technique?

This is what i found on washed out cylinders-->
Consecutive low compression in all cylinders could mean that the problem of fuel washed cylinders exists. This means that the engine has had too much fuel introduced into it and all of the oil has been washed off the cylinder walls. The oil creates a sealing effect between the piston and ring assemblies and the cylinder walls of the engine block. Without this thin layer of oil, the engine compression would be allowed to escape into the crankcase. This is common with an engine that has a 'flooding' problem.

??? And if i change the oil and dry out the cylinders, will the condition of to much fuel still exist, and be back at square one. Or do i need to further diagnose the constant voltage at the fuel injector wire harness and correct this before any other tests???

[quote:8d2c9a4476="knightscbr"]What is the vaccum gauge technique?

This is what i found on washed out cylinders-->
Consecutive low compression in all cylinders could mean that the problem of fuel washed cylinders exists. This means that the engine has had too much fuel introduced into it and all of the oil has been washed off the cylinder walls. The oil creates a sealing effect between the piston and ring assemblies and the cylinder walls of the engine block. Without this thin layer of oil, the engine compression would be allowed to escape into the crankcase. This is common with an engine that has a 'flooding' problem.

??? And if i change the oil and dry out the cylinders, will the condition of to much fuel still exist, and be back at square one. Or do i need to further diagnose the constant voltage at the fuel injector wire harness and correct this before any other tests???[/quote:8d2c9a4476]

Lets try the coolant temperature sensor-check its resistances warm and cold after the oil change don't forget a new filter.

It might be somthing I don't know but what does the coolant temp. sensor have anything to do with this?

[quote:7b56f01e87="knightscbr"]It might be somthing I don't know but what does the coolant temp. sensor have anything to do with this?[/quote:7b56f01e87]

The CTS is like the choke assy on a Carb-this is where the computer base itself on initial start-for fuel demand during open loop phase-before the oxygen sensors takes over the A/F mixture.

When stuck on open loop and does not switch to closed loop the computer will dump fuel causing it to run rich.

Check your fuel pressure regulator and fuel return line

What am trying to do here is to knock that flooding problem out before you go deep 6 on compression problem.

I think Raz and I both goin the same direction... I think we both went way outta line...its fair to explain or predict some possibility for any car problems....or even advice some car owners how to test out a problematic area ...not 101 mechanic overnite...i can't teach my lube techs how to nail down a no start overnite ...how r we able to get him fix his car..

Ok I tested the coolant temp sensor it read close to 0.10 with ohm meter cold in the vehicle, should I take it out and get it hot in water then test it again hot. I already tested the pressure regulator with fuel pressure testor it is working properly @50 psi. I uhooked the fuel line again pulled half the spark plugs and cranked it to dry it out, put a little oil in three cyl.s put plugs back in and it fired 3 or 4 times, with a little start fluid in air intake. after all this with fuel line unhooked all the time the vapors will ignite over and over again in the valve cover. Probably from the fuel in the oil?? I also tried to jump the connector to the CTS across it self and left it unplugged to try and fool the computer that the engine was warm, but the dash temp remained at cold, the sensor is right by the neck where the radiator hose connects. And this is a returnless fuel system. 96 3.0 voyager.

had a bad ohm meter first test. Heres the reading for 2nd test --->

PROCEDURE
With the engine at normal operating temperature, approximaterly 200°F (93°C), the ohmmeter should read approximately 700-1000 ohms. (COULDN'T TESXT THIS ENGINE DOES NOT RUN)

With the engine at room temperature, approximately 70°F (21°C), the ohmmeter should read approximately 7000-13,000 ohms. (I GOT A READING OF 12,700 AND IT WAS ABOUT 70 DEGRESS OUTSIDE)

If not within specifications, replace the engine coolant temperature sensor.

Test the resistance of the wiring harness between PCM terminal 26 and the sensor wiring harness connector. Also check for continuity between PCM connector terminal 43 and the sensor wiring harness connector. If the resistance measures greater than 1 ohm, repair the wiring harness as necessary.

(26 TO CTS CONNECTOR WAS 1.7 OHMS)
(43 TO CTS CONNECTOR WAS .8 OHMS)

HELP?

??????....*&^&*^&%&^%*&^*^&^%^#$@^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.................

hey knight !!!...it said here u are tech level 1 and I am level 4 ...how's this whole thing come about? ....i was thinking all alongu just some regular novice car owner.........

anyway..if ur residual pressure hold ..then tell me how u gonna get flood again?...if not..just step on the gas pedal all the way don't let go and keep cranking till it start running...simple enuff?


ras!!!!! where are u??..explain this tech level system to me...I AM LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


MORE HEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!......HAWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey kin I don't know whats going on all I know is you were helping me then ras joined in and I kinda got lost on what yhou guys wanted me to test next so I was just wainting on a response, I don't know how I changed to a tech level 1 i was new to the forum when u started helpin me. How did you get to be a tech level 4?

So I'm trying to find out how its flooding itself, the only thing I can come up with is the test I did on the fuel injector wires, I hooked up 12V test light to one of them and it pulsated while cranking and the test procedure i'm going off of says it is supposed to flash on and off, So im thinking that maybe the injectors are getting a signal for fuel all the time and all dumping fuel simotaneously, --> I've already tried flooring it a few different times, no luck! I havent changed the oil yet to see if it will start because I am still hoping to pinpoint the flooding problem. ras had me check the CTS it checked out OK, you had me do a fuel pressure test it held 50 psi for 15 minutes


What next?????

u've gotta do exactly what i prescribed ...no more no less ...not 1/2 way....if u dry up the cylinder..oil it do a compression and verfyi its got good comp pressure .. then key on engine off and key off chk pressure hold (which proof u've got NO LEAK)...if u have no leaks ..u've gotta able to start the engine..
when u crank --> I'VE TOLD U TO HOLD UR PEDAL TO THE FLOOR TILL IT FIRE UP AND RUN!!! NOT PUMP IT A FEW TIMES!!!!!!........and by the way..where u get that injector pulse procedure???...
thats junk man!!!!!!!.....

TESTING

Unplug the injector electrical connector.

Using an ohmmeter, test the injector resistance across the injector terminals. The reading should be approximately 12 ohms at 68°F (20°C).

If the resistance falls outside specifications, replace the faulty injector.

If the resistance is within specifications, proceed with the testing.

Place a 12 volt test lamp across the injector's electrical connector terminals. Watch the test lamp while cranking the engine and compare with the following:

If the test lamp does not flash, check the power feed and ground circuits between the PCM and the injector connector. Refer to the wiring diagrams in Chassis Electrical for wire colors. If the circuits are faulty, repair them. If the circuits are OK, test the engine control system using the Chrysler DRB, or equivalent scan tool.

If the test lamp flashes, proceed with the testing.

Check for fuel delivery at the suspect injector by removing the injector from the fuel rail and check for fuel and/or restrictions in the rail or injector fuel inlet. Compare your results with the following:

If there is no fuel present at the injector, replace the plugged injector, or clean the restricted passage, as necessary.

If there is fuel present at the injector, proceed with the testing.

With the injector removed from the fuel rail, connect a 12 volt source to one terminal on the injector connector and a ground wire to the other terminal. The injector should click each time the ground wire is connected and disconnected to and from the terminal.

If the injector clicks, it is OK. If it does not click, it must be replaced.

I BORROWED A CAR WITH SAME ENGINE TO DO THE INJECTOR TEST, IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO FLASH LIKE TEST PROCEDURE SAYS, MY VAN TESTED JUST LIKE THE RUNNING MOTER!!
I have got it to fire a couple times now, I've always held the pedal to the floor the whole time no pumping, I think I will proceed with the oil change, dry out the cyl. like u said and I think it will start. Try it tomorrow.

and i think tech level 1 is just from answering others posts!

I'll let u know if i get it started
thanks for hangin in w/me

now just on the realistic side ..not putting anybody down... ask any L1 tech or any1 who really can fix real world driveability problems ..nobody will count on resistant to conclude good or bad injectors ...only resistant test can proof is bad injectors but not the other way around ..u can't see if they open 1/2 way,stuck or fully open..closer to test they are good is to scope it with voltage or amperage probably a 5 gas relative flow test ...also noid light didn't mean squat cuz it can't tell how many milli sec of on time at cold start ...u try that on a vortec 350 ..anything under 10 ms i don't care u getting good spark compression and fuel pressure...it aint gonna start..i know for sure..cuz thats when i decided to go to class buy equipment and read 2 hrs of tech scripture everynite...i'm just too tired and too shame of callin every1 up to bail my behind out whenever i run into a problem and i can't stand up to it..no sweat man..i know very li'o about pc computer neither ...cuz i don't have to know enuff of pc to make a living ..but on cars ..i must ..thats the only way i know how to make a living...

Mr. Knight

While cranking the engine the injectors are being pulsed. Now the fuel flow is unknown-maybe a flow test will confirm the condition of the injectors. Now if your spark is weak it will not fire upon that fuel further check of the ignition system is needed.

Maybe the quad driver in the PCM is stuck on the ground side causing it not to switch and constant fuel is being injected when not wanted.

Again if the pressure regulator is not doing its job or clogged fuel return line it overpressurize the system causing a flooding condition. Dunno if its a returnless system

Did you check the pressure regulator and for a clogged return line.?

If you can knock this out I will recommend immediate promotion to Tech2 level between me and Chan we've given something to think! about-go back and read it again. Quit playing hocus pocus! get the job done by the numbers. Don't worry am watching you every step of the way.

Remember you're a Tech in here-you lead by examples for others to follow
Now go back and select your course of actions to get to this Damian, and then take action.

Good Luck-am eye balling

Mar 22, 2007 at 1:38 AM

HEY RASMA!!!
think about the following!!!...WAKE UP!!!
- 3 things make a car start and run --> right
- he went on and by pass the compression ,oil change and crank the car --> he had no grasp on the concept of compression and mixture ignition temperature..
- injectors test from some voodoo place --> had no basic concept of how fuel inject sys operate and can't determine whats good or bad info --> tons of info everywhere i can almost fix most car with the info just over the open internet but what is useful whats not --> thats what real mechanic is all about --> the ability to evaluate and modify what's need on ur own situation by mastering basic .
in this case --> u've gotta think
---has pressure and hold pressure( KOEO) = pressure regulator chks out <- fuel pressure only truely reflect the state and condition of pressure regulator
-- i looked up all data ...regulator is in the tank but is a 2 line system...IT IS NOT A RETURNLESS SYSTEM!!!!
-- spark test open only means the computer trigger ignition system...means nuthing to correct timing and also means nuthing about it can supply adequate voltage under cylinder pressure..only known way i can think of is using current probe and compare it with known good ignition coil wave form which there's plenty of em' available such as IATN
-- fuel volume test can only test by a fuel analyser
such as KODA under engine running condition
I'll bet u anything that he clean up his excess fuel ...do an oil change ..that thing will fire right up...the reason he still can't start is becuz he is not having adequate compression therefore his mixture temp is not nearly close to ignite ...

now least and not last ...who and how this tech level system work.. why aint u tech level 5,6,7,8,9...10 but masterpros status?...i'm just curious ...i came in here to sharpen my diagnostic skill so it can enhance my daily practice...


1 more thing ..we are not sure his injectors,camor ignition timingis correct..but if he hasn't proof the basic...why bother...as least my opinion between a pro and amateur is --> pro don't have 2 years to do a project like amateur ...we've gotta be on the money in a hurry to tell a customer whats the problem ,how much and how long to fix it..agree?

Okay-Lee Wang Kin Chan I hear you

Well he came aboard w/a problem and its obvious that somewhere he lost us. Maybe his diagnostic procedures are not up to snuff-but someday he'll learn thru his mistakes.

Compression problems-all he had to do was do a wet/dry test or leakdown or reading the vacuum gauge and put it all together for conclusion.

As for his ignition he can use a probe or the scope to ID a problem within the ignition system

KOEO on fuel pressure check don't mean nothing-it has to run and maintain that pressure by the regulator. Static/RUN w/w/o the regulator/Hold/Volume all these thing has to come in place.

As for iANT I'm a member there that place separates the boys from the men. Just like the Pros vs Ammys here.

We really don't know what's really wrong and what's been done so far. All I know so far is fuel getting into the crankcase. I've been giving him things to look that can be a cause.

If in fact he did drain it and apply some oil drops in the cylinder it should be able to fire up. Unless its a different issue such as Valve and Ignition timing

You need to bring up the issue of Tech level to higher up. Don't really know how its done. Maybe Max/Jack/Ken/Bruce/Service Writer will explain.

Amen!

Do you guys remeber the days of carbuerators? gas lines freezing? Cylinders washing in gas? The first thing done then was...change oil, change plugs and wires. try to start car, usually with sucess, three basics have not chenged ya need compression, test not done yet? spark, and gas. This car supposedly has two out of three...DO A WET COMPRESSION TEST!

Well i was taking a break to try and get some $$ to donate before i asked any more ??'s -->but I had did some tests before i stopped and i wanted to tell the results,---{I changed the oil first and tried to start it but it wouldn't}-- the compression test was 150 psi. on every cyl but #4 (it was 130), but after adding oil to cyl. it came up to 150. the other cyl.'s did not improve much with adding oil. Later i peeked in a book at the store and it said compression should be 178 psi at 250 rpm's. ??? dont know if 28 psi difference will make it not start. was going to try and cut a slot in the timing covers (it is plastic) to verify timing belt/cams are lining up properly. {{Because to me it sounds like when it tries to fire most of the time it stops the motor for a split second then the starter kicks back in, ---some times but not very many it fires two times in a row and it turns the motor faster instead of stopping it}} And i also found out after the cold wheather was over (when it first wouldn't start) that the battery had not really exploded, but swelled up and split leaking battery acid down, only thing below is 2 wire harness plugs (cleaned them) and the pcm is beside the battery with the power dist. center in between the batt. and the pcm????? doesnt look like any battery fluid got on it (the pcm).

a 100 psi is good enuff to fire an engine ... if u've got the correct timing and good sparks .u could have use starting fluid and get it running for a few seconds

i've tried the starting fluid, same results no starting, it may be flooding cause the timing is off were it wont start, thats what i was going to try and check next by cutting a small hole in the plastic timing belt cover and checking to see if the belt is lining up on the marks???

if ur cam timing is off ...how can u have compression?.....crimp off ur fuel supply line ....clear all cylinder dry 1 more time..spray starting fluid and start it again...if still won't start its gotta be ur ignition timing...most likely the battery acid damage ur computer...let me know the tail end of the story