Oil in coolant

Thank you for the donation.

The is there a oil cooler inside the radiator? look for the lines. IF so, it may have ruptured inside of the rad.

that's exactly what it sounds like servicewriter. if that's the case then you'll need to replace the radiator and thermostat, and flush out the entire coolant system untill all the oil is out. thanks for your donation

"Don't see any lines other than trans axle cooler lines. Where would the
engine oil cooler lines be if the car has a cooler? If there is no
engine oil cooler, what else would be causing this problem?"


My next expectation is a leaking intake manifold gasket. They generally fail from 60,000 to 120,000 miles. For as much oil that your losing, I'll bet your burning some also. These failures have very different symptoms, somtimes coolant loss, oil loss, air leakage, internal leakage and external leakage as well as mixing of fluids.
Both the 3.1 and the 3.4 motors have these gasket problems. Based on your situation, I'll bet you have the 3.4 motor. The 3.1 is more typlically coolant external leakage.

[quote:735e726280="Service Writer"]"Don't see any lines other than trans axle cooler lines. Where would the
engine oil cooler lines be if the car has a cooler? If there is no
engine oil cooler, what else would be causing this problem?"


My next expectation is a leaking intake manifold gasket. They generally fail from 60,000 to 120,000 miles. For as much oil that your losing, I'll bet your burning some also. These failures have very different symptoms, somtimes coolant loss, oil loss, air leakage, internal leakage and external leakage as well as mixing of fluids.
Both the 3.1 and the 3.4 motors have these gasket problems. Based on your situation, I'll bet you have the 3.4 motor. The 3.1 is more typlically coolant external leakage.[/quote:735e726280]No doubt. The intake gasket is blown. I had the same problem. About $900 for the replacement. Buick knew about this problem and has a number of lawsuits about it. The dex-cool coolant eats away the gasket. They don't replace them with the same kind.

IMHO, dexcool wasn't the problem. Why doesn't it eat the 5.7,2.2 or 2.4 motors?

IMHO, The Dexcool is being added to the lawsuit as there will be another defendant added to the case; that means another money source. Much like the Firestone and Ford explorer lawsuits. If the lawyers went after the GM design team I would be more acceptable of it.

The 3.8 intake manifold itself had a problem with a hot spot where heat became a catalyst for the erosion of it, had it been just the dexcool, we would see damage in more places I would think. The 3.1 and 3.4 motors had a poorly designed intake gasket design, Fel-pro has seemed to of solved it with metal gaskets. The 3.1 motors had this problem before Dexcool was put into systems. The 3.4 motors that are having problems with the intake gaskets are not always coolant related failures. Many suffer a breach in the gasket that sucks and burns oil, sometimes fairly quickly to the point of a dry sump and seized the engine from no lubrication We are pretty sure the designer of today’s auto are divorced women previously married to mechanics.

Seems that in the early years 95-99 roughly, we saw a fair amount of Dexcool troubles of sludging. Some where only sludge in the neck as a TSB refers to. When we started flushing the coolant didn’t look so bad. Others were very dirty at 60,000 miles. Some to the point of several flushes to clean it out. I have wondered if GM made a formula change to the dexcool. But, why some engines and not others? One thought is that in the early years, there were a lot of unknowns and mis-conceptions of the new coolant. What did owners or technicians unwittingly do or not do that may have promoted this situation.
I haven’t seen problems in a while. I don’t know that I’ll ever truly know.

I do know that mixing the coolant types will reduce the lifespan to the lowest common denominator, in which case I would probably revert the system to the 2 year coolant.

Now fast forward to 2005 and here in 2007, Gm has gone to another new coolant, this one BLUE in color. We had a Chevy Aveo in the shop with a low coolant reservoir, with a blue color fluid in it. I brought the customer into the bat and asked him where he puts the washer solvent. After a dirty look, he pointed to the washer reservoir. I showed him the coolant bottle and he says he never checked at any point, let alone adding anything to it. He further stated that he has only brought the vehicle to us and to a dealership that just recently closed. So we proceeded to check the manual, it says, “only add the proper coolant” UUHHH, YEAH! So I went to the spec page for the coolant, it just says it meets astm m1825 standard. HHMMM, I’ll call the dealer. This is where it became both humorous and scary at the same time. This Parts Guy say’s Yeah, “there’some new stuff in they are using, I think it’s the same as Dexcool.” Then he yells to a tech at the counter about it. I hear the tech say, “I think it’s the same, I dunno”, another one yells out, “I think it’s a 2 year coolant”, Someones else says “Yeah, that’s what I thought”, Then a condescending voice says, “Should say it right in the owner’s manual”. The Parts guy says he has to research it. So I research the astm m1825 on the internet and it alludes to it being a 2 year coolant. 1/2 hour later the dealer tells me the same thing.

The dexcool eats away the gasket that was put in models from about 98 to 2003 of the 3.1 and 3.4. When they repair them why don't they use the OEM? They don't because they don't make them anymore. Dexcool would eat them up too. They use a different one that will last. I will agree with you a 100% about the tech's, most of them don't care and will tell most people anything to get them away after paying their bill. I think half of them are in a different world when you talk to them. But, they can't get anyone else any different so what are they going to do.

OEM does make them, with a revised one. There are always parts being revised for better performance.

I'm not sold about the dexcool eating gaskets. I have seen the breeches in the gaskets, there wern't "eaten". It isn't logical from my perspective.

There are a lot of excellent techs that are quite professional and ethical, much more than many "businessman" or "ceo"s. There are bad apples in every walk of life. Can not paint techs with a broad brush. You can't imagine how difficult understanding and repairing cars can be. It takes some serious intelligence to be a tech in today's world.

[quote:271ebc4203="Service Writer"]OEM does make them, with a revised one. There are always parts being revised for better performance.

I'm not sold about the dexcool eating gaskets. I have seen the breeches in the gaskets, there wern't "eaten". It isn't logical from my perspective.

There are a lot of excellent techs that are quite professional and ethical, much more than many "businessman" or "ceo"s. There are bad apples in every walk of life. Can not paint techs with a broad brush. You can't imagine how difficult understanding and repairing cars can be. It takes some serious intelligence to be a tech in today's world.[/quote:271ebc4203]I agree with you a 100%, but why is it that when someone has problems they always get the bad apple? I agree, it's like that in every profession. 90% percent of the owners want to do a good job, but most of the workforce just don't care.

Perhaps we agree to disagree... or mis-communicate.

This alone may be one of the most important dialogs I have be involved with on this forum and is essential that you get other opinion from our Moderators. This is the apex of customer & shop relationships. Thank-you for following through on this post!

You're 3 sentences are massive in nature.

Bad apple, I refer to those who are not ethical or competent.

(This is such a large and serious subject it is hard to begin.)

Let's deal with why problems happen first.

-Mis-communication- Potential for trouble:
-The customer does not clearly convey the problem.
-The service writer does not listen well enough to convey the customers problem to the tech, or fails to ask the right questions.

Our world:
-the tech is not given ample time to diagnose, the tech does not have access to the information needed, the information provided is not clear or logical or accurate that leads to unintentional mis-diagnosis
-The engineers that designed the car made mistakes.
-Parts are bad from new.
-

Complications from the car owner:
-The car maintenance was not performed as it should have been.
-the car owner allowed multiple problems to occur.
-The car owner has taken it to a different place each time.
-the car owner and "BOB the Neighbor" who gives the impression he knows all lot about cars, attempted the repairs. This alone creates a bit of a frankenstein. Parts put on wrong, parts that are bad, parts that don't belong to a vehicle, Things not reattached right, they couldn't figure out how to get it back together.

Customer's barrier to understanding:

- Customers can't comprehend why they are getting charged "to look at a car problem". We need to get to a connector or part that takes 45 minutes to access to help determine what is causing a problem, who should pay for it? Should the tech not get paid to do that? Should the shop pay the tech but not charge the customer, when he could have the tech work on a paying job? Many costs are associated with find a problem such as software, scanners training etc.

-Customer paranoia.

-Customer not understanding what is being explained because they are afraid to ask questions. They can be afraid they won't understand, so they shut out what they are being told.

-

idriveatitliest, I sincerly welcome this discussion and asked other moderators to help show our side of the nightmare of auto repair so you can understand our side.

I don't know that 90% of the owners of businesses want to do a good job or not. Some do care, some don't care. Some are ethical some are not. Same with techs. Good ones have enormous pride that will not collapse to unethical behavior, getting beat without giving their all nor taking a auto repair problem personnel. Both owners and tech get worn out or burnt out from customers as well. It seems that some folks believe they can take their aggressions out on the shop and it's employees. I won't stand for that behavior and wouldn't treat a customer like that.

There are those that are paid on commission that can alter one's judgement...not all of them. A shop should charge what it needs to stay in business, one has the choice to go elsewhere. A good shop is not typically inexpensive.

There are shops that have a culture of unethical behavior and ones that strive to be pure.

There are just plain bad situations that make a good shop look bad. IT happens. A car comes in to relace the left headlight, and then the right one goes out. IT just choose to fail at a bad time for us, but, we didn't cause it to happen.

I know I haven't answered this well enough, and may post again tommorrow, there are other replies I need to address and it's been a long day already.

Thank-you for continuing this post. :D

The ethical cloud that surrounds auto repair shops is a difficult one to explain. Initial diagnosis can be incorrect and aging working parts are replaced with new parts but the problem remains. Mechanics need the vehicle in order to continue to diagnose the problem, but often owners are infuriated that they had to pay for a repair (which may have been necessary anyway) but it didn't solve the problem that was reported and refuse to come in for further "abuse". Generally customers that trust their mechanic can always work out difficult repair issues. Car repair by nature is an elusive beast. Symptoms don't often reveal the extent of damage to the vehicle and all of its systems. Diagnosing electrical problems can be extremely difficult. Todays cars have a fantastic amount of technology built into them. Which can lead to expensive and elussive problems.
Reputation is the only true gauge of a shop. The question is would you recommend your mechanic to a friend or family member. We will be developing a forum for recomending your mechanic and why. This list will be a fantastic current database for checking or complimenting of your mechanic.

scottspeer,
Sorry to hear about your oil/coolant problem. I am pretty sure you have 3.1 six. First thing I would do or have done is to have the cooling system pressure tested. Listen @ the dip stick tube for the hiss of a leak. I would also have a compression/leakdown test done to check for a head gasket or head leakage.

Also have the coolant flow tested, either things are pretty well clogged or your water pump is history. I would have the temp gauge checked also.

If the overall condition of the vehicle is good I would not hesitate to make the necessary repairs.

Good luck and let us know. :)

Now to address the other issues. My 2 cents.
Dexcool
Used it in several vehicles all different makes and models without issue. Is the gasket the problem or the coolant? I would say the gasket and that is why it has been updated.
Techs
Most techs that I know have a passion for their work. Both dealer and independents have above average integrity. A lot give countless hours on sites just like this one.
Business owners
Regardless of the business, owners are concerned with health of their business. This includes numerous factors, profitabilty, liabilty, and so on. Needless to say quality services at a good value are (or should be) part of that concern.

That said, the complexity of todays autos can require serious diagnostic time. In some instances this is skipped and the most likely culprit is repaired/replaced. This is done to controll cost, pass value on to the customer, or sometimes to add to the businesses bottom line.

A point in case is a dealer tech that I know for Ford. He was instructed to simply replace the DPFE sensor whenever a specific trouble code was found. No further diagnosis was allowed. I wonder if the vehicle came back with the same code they would replace the DPFE again!

Service Writer covered many of the other issues that can plague car repair. All are very valid concerns.

IMO there are both good and bad in everything. The car repair business is no different. People are most vocal when problems arise. So you only hear about the bad apples.

2CarPros Mike is correct, "Reputation is the only true gauge of a shop." Check with friends, neighbors, and relatives, not to mention the BBB.

:wink:

Hey All,
Was asked to chime in on this one (Paul) The subject of business reputation and technician quality is a subject near and dear to me. I spend 3-4 days a week traveling around the north east to repair shops and small dealerships as a troubleshooter and trainer. I see our work force (technicians) dwindling week by week. I see shop owners struggling to find quality help. And of course technology keeps on moving forward by leaps and bounds.( I'll try to add my 2 cents to all the points made here, just bear in mind its 5 a.m. ok? :lol: )

Idrive:I will agree with you a 100% about the tech's, most of them don't care and will tell most people anything to get them away after paying their bill. I think half of them or on drugs and are in a different world when you talk to them. But, they can't get anyone else any different so what are they going to do.

Not a fair statement, yet I can understand and respect your comment. All too often professionalism and plain old "good customer service" is lost in this industry, why? several reasons. All too often we are not viewed as professionals and this promotes this misconception. 2.Some shop owners them selves lack certain customer service skills and do not hold their employees accountable for this either. A clear set of expectations would solve this dogma.


Paul: your mega post(s). You know good customer service, 1/2 the battle won. you seem to realize the "plight" of the tech's but I'm going to add to that "plight" and hopefully not anger/offend anyone here (especially the biz owners), These are my observations, having been in hundreds of shops and trained even more technicians.

1.TRAINING! There are still a huge number of technicians out there who lack the most basic of diagnostic skills. To date its still common practice to leave the "training" in the techs lap (independent techs, not dealer) meaning he or she has to pay for and find the time to learn. Solution? Biz owners/techs work together to ease this burden. A block of time in the work week for in house training, biz owner $ assist for outside/ASE/online training. Big business does it! Heck even wal-mart does it! Why can't we?

2. I call it "The cost of staying current". Tools and equipment to properly do our jobs. Tough one to address! But ...... if your investing in your career or your business then its a MUST HAVE. Makes life easier for the customer and makes life easier for you. We've all spent big $$$$ for this! and it does not get any cheaper! IMO a necessary expense.

Mike:Great Post! We MUST overcome the the perception that all shops are crooked! Public education and building the reputation!

pepper:Most techs that I know have a passion for their work. Both dealer and independents have above average integrity. A lot give countless hours on sites just like this one. Business owners,Regardless of the business, owners are concerned with health of their business. This includes numerous factors, profitabilty, liabilty, and so on. Needless to say quality services at a good value are (or should be) part of that concern.

Well said, very good business practices indeed! CRUCIAL to this industry.

Dexcool: Uggggggg! have seen studies as to the acidity of the coolant over time, negligible and not a factor. pepper made the point! GASKET FAILURE! and all have been updated by OEM and Aftermarket, cut and dry!

Gonna close for now, also pm this thread to one smart a$$ lady/biz owner/service writer for her 2 cents. you'll be pleasantly surprised I'm sure!

Chris

after the repairs are made and you still wanna use dexcool, do not add any other water to the coolant system besides distilled. all other types of water have minerals and such which can cause electode build up in the coolant system.

on behalf of what i read, i also have seen these mishaps in the shops i've worked at. example: i used to work at goodyear several years ago, i did an alignment on a customers car, they came back the next day because the car started missing and thought it was something i did during the alignment. of course i know i didn't cause the engine to miss, but trying to explain to a customer who wants they're money back because they think i caused the problem is not easy.

i've also seen where the service manager charged the customer for a service that i didn't even do, when i found out about it i confronted him. regaurdless what the situation is there are gonna be problems in the shop, whether it's the crooked mechanic (which gives use honests one's a bad name), or the paranoid customer. i don't think there's a solution to this. as a tech we have to do our best to make the customer happy, and try to build that trust. we can't make everyone happy, but at least they're in the minority.

[quote:4dca13ef99="bootdog"]after the repairs are made and you still wanna use dexcool, do not add any other water to the coolant system besides distilled. all other types of water have minerals and such which can cause electode build up in the coolant system.

[/quote:4dca13ef99]

Shane,
Though I don't agree with you on the dexcool side of your point,(and thats totally cool!!) I'll offer up some alternatives for the customer. There are many, less expensive universal type coolants available. I'll use these every day of the week! Having seen too many problems with the so called 100k miles extended life. I'll liken it to the 100k mile spark plugs , sure they may last a 100 k but who in there right mind would leave a plug in for that long? John Q. Public will and then have a coronary when he/she came into the shop for a simple tune up and it turns into a head removal/machine shop rework because the plugs are fused in the heads. I'm sure as technology evolves the product will get better, but it's not there now! Unless GM's "blue cool" comes thru???? too early to tell.

Chris

Great discussion and i'll leave it there. Here is a question that I would like for you to answer. Please read all my comments before answering. Its about the 2002 Rendezvous that my wife has. Summertime, out on the highway driving, I get anywhere from 26 to 30 miles to the gallon. Wintertime, out on the highway driving, I get anywhere from 20 to 24 miles to the gallon. Now, that said, let me get into my comments. The temperture in the summertime runs 195 degrees and that is right. In the wintertime, while driving down the road, the temperture runs about 165 to 170. The tech had a scan tool on while actually dirving it. If you stop and let it idle then the temp gauge and the scan tool will go up to 195 or above until the fans come on. The fans keep it anywhere from 195 to 215 while idling. We let it idle for about 15 minutes. When you start off you can actually see the temp gauge falling. They, actually GM, replaced the thermostat but it still does the same thing. I know the thermostat is good because I put it into some water on the stove and with a gauge and the thermostat opened at exactly 195. I have checked with other Rendezvous owners in my town and they have the same problem. I have looked at and drove a brand new 2005 and a 2006 and they do the same thing. I have been in contact with GM and Buick and they don't have an answer either. All we can figure out is the air circulates around the engine because of the design and cools the engine. All that takes place if the temperture is below 50 degress and that is on a gradual scale. At 50 degrees it runs about 180 to 190. At 30 degrees it runs about 160. When the temp is running at 160 the computer thinks that is still warming up and puts more gas into the engine. What do you think? All of you, please put some input to this question. Thanks

WOW, how does one add to such elloquent and accurate posts.Yes, we have all worked with "hacks" and know that they dont last long if the shop is worth working at. As all that posted stated,reputation and customer service is key.It is impossible to please everyone every time,all we can do is be honest and do the best we can.If a shop does these things then the deserved rep will follow.I find the biggest problem to be that people dont understand just how complicated new cars are.Seems like the common misconception is that you just plug into the vehicle and it tells you what to do, change the part and I'll be on my way. Techs today must have training to keep up, no question about it, the more the better. I am proud to be associated with this group of people, your willingness to help others in your "spare" time should be recognized for the sacrifice that it is.... THANK YOU ALL
Patience with the customer sometimes can be a trying experience: The guy hasnt worked on a car since he put a set of points in his 54 Chevy, and you are trying to explain to him ( at his request ) how you fixed his Cadillac that has more on-board technology than the lunar lander. Smile, make him feel a little more informed about his car.Customers will always balk at the price of fixing their cars,pay a doctor $100 just to walk in the door, $70-$80 to find out what is wrong with your car that you drive every day seems like too much? Anyway.... Once again every Mod in here should be thanked for the help you provide.....From your responses, Id bring my vehicles to any one of your shops!!!!!

Now.. Dexcool.... 3.1's were originally 2.8's.. couldnt keep intake gaskets in those either, is it really the Dexcool? or any coolant/anti-freeze, personally I dont really like it, seen alot of muck from it, but it has to stay at least through manufacturers warranty.The updated gaskets from all companies work just fine.

idrive (btw .....I too drive a titleist dt100 wound to be exact ....they are getting scarce though! :shock: )

Interesting issue to say the least and I'm inclined to believe its a cooling system flow issue rather than an external air temp in the engine compartment causing this. I'm also a huge "lets run some simple tests" kind of guy too. Back in the day truckers would put cardboard over the radiator in winter. Those big diesels would never make temp! Looks to me like a simple test to rule in or out the coolant flow vs air flow. Ya really got my curiosity up! Run the test and re-post!

Regards!

Chris

[quote:7fcd85c55f="2CarPro Jack"] .From your responses, Id bring my vehicles to any one of your shops!!!!!
.[/quote:7fcd85c55f]

Jack
Undoubtedly the best compliment that could ever be paid to a fellow technician! I feel the same exact way also! (well, maybe not if Paul decided to break into his meager toolbox of "stuff" LOL :twisted: Sorry my friend, had to get ya!)
Great group of folks here and the willingness to share experiences and give help is simply the best I've seen! ANYWHERE!

Chris

there are shops out there that have inadicate help sometimes they push a car through without finding what the real problem is. many people have only one car and with today society want the mechanic to hurry and get it done. in the old day we had just the spark plugs, coil and carberator to worry about. if we had other problems we would ask our friends. there are shops that will evaluate they problems before settling on what is wrong with the vehicle. other shops just lok at it and replace what they think is the problem without really finding the cause.
some people who post know little about the fundimentals of there cars. like my wife she knows
where the gas and oil go and thats about it. vehicles need to be maintained. with the posts i respond to, i have to sit and think about what the person is saying before answereing. sometimes they leave out important facts that would make it easier to help them. i have seen new parts that were bad before they were even used. some garages do play on the lack of knowledge that the customer has and will charge for things that were not done. i have not seen that too much anymore. but it still happens. customers should ask to see the old parts. i notice a lot of posts that you could tell the people knew little about autos. what one should do is sit and think about the problem before they answer. there are many things i do not know so i leave it to someone who knows more about them to answer. i try to give my insight on the problems that are most logical to fit the problem. some people gain knowledge with asking questions to learn more about vehicles. i had a drive axle go on my subaru. went to a shop. price of axle through there shop with installeation was $310 estimate. the axle alone was $220. found a rebuilt axle from a auto store for 85. a friend helped me put it in. toatal cost $94 with tax . plus a six pack. {after it was done} saying me $110. with the prices skyrocketing people need all the help they can get.

Guys,
Thanks so much for input to a frustrating area with many emotions. As peers and mentors, I have benefitted greatly in a short period of time on this forum. This forum is playing an important role to help dispell some of the paranoia that surrounds the Auto repair world. Be it some of the parnoia is valid. The new forum Mike mentioned will be a great avenue to contine paving better relations. I appreciate the requested input.

I do apologize for some of my antics, some serve a purpose, and some demean my charactor. I get a little carried away at times. My personality is what it is, but will try to stay more even-keeled.

Thanks again for the responses on this matter and in such a timely fashion.

. Hey Paul! you are giving opportunities to all of us to give our point of view on these subjects: they are so important for our self, our productivity, our employer or employee, our customers, relationship technicians have to each other. All of these are a part of our obligation as automotive technicians, and all are connected to our reputation and the reputation of the shop as follow, either bad or good.
I want to start with :
1/ Honesty.
Employers and customer expect and deserve honesty from automotive technician. Honesty create feeling of trust among technicians, employers and customers. Things like changing unnecessary parts and charging the customer for it, or the customer misleading the technician about the real cause of the problem making it more hard for the technician to find out after many costly diagnosis.
2/ Attitude: Employees should maintain a positive attitude at all times. Automotive technician have days when it may be difficult to maintain a positive attitude; for example, there will be days when the technical problem on a certain vehicle are difficult to solve. However developing a negative attitude certainly will not help the situation. A positive attitude has a positive effect on the job situation as well as on the customer.
3/ TEAMWORK/ :D THIS ONE IS IMPORTANT.
The shop staff is a team. The 2carpro.com moderators are a team. We should cooperate with and care about. Cooperative teamwork help to improve shop efficiency. for example As moderator if I disagree with another moderator about the right procedure to do the job, I will send him or her a private message telling him or her what I think, but not arguing or putting the co worker down in front of the customers. Remember this: Engineers :) who make cars make also mistake .this is why we see a lot of recalls. :lol:
Customers may be turn off by bickering between shop personnel or between moderators.
Productivity: As automotive technicians, we have a responsibility to our employer/ shop to make the best possible use of time on the job. We are paid for our skills, effort and time.
Let's comeback to real life :D
Most People go to the doctor when they are sick or they go the dentist only when they have tooth pain
:? Well, they do the same for their car too, and sometime when things get worse and they are looking for very cheap labor combine with a job well done. There are also some peoples out there who do not care how much it will cost to fix it but just a good job done so they do not have to come back for the same problem.

Here is my conclusion:
We have specific responsibility regarding each job performed on a customer's vehicle.
Our reputation and the reputation of the shop are connected to each other. The key to the reputation is the " Winn, Winn business" not " Winn, loose business"

Hey Paul! :) Thanks for this opportunity and thanks for everybody giving their view so we can get know each other.

[quote:ebb0e12a1c="idriveatitliest"]Great discussion and i'll leave it there. Here is a question that I would like for you to answer. Please read all my comments before answering. Its about the 2002 Rendezvous that my wife has. Summertime, out on the highway driving, I get anywhere from 26 to 30 miles to the gallon. Wintertime, out on the highway driving, I get anywhere from 20 to 24 miles to the gallon. Now, that said, let me get into my comments. The temperture in the summertime runs 195 degrees and that is right. In the wintertime, while driving down the road, the temperture runs about 165 to 170. The tech had a scan tool on while actually dirving it. If you stop and let it idle then the temp gauge and the scan tool will go up to 195 or above until the fans come on. The fans keep it anywhere from 195 to 215 while idling. We let it idle for about 15 minutes. When you start off you can actually see the temp gauge falling. They, actually GM, replaced the thermostat but it still does the same thing. I know the thermostat is good because I put it into some water on the stove and with a gauge and the thermostat opened at exactly 195. I have checked with other Rendezvous owners in my town and they have the same problem. I have looked at and drove a brand new 2005 and a 2006 and they do the same thing. I have been in contact with GM and Buick and they don't have an answer either. All we can figure out is the air circulates around the engine because of the design and cools the engine. All that takes place if the temperture is below 50 degress and that is on a gradual scale. At 50 degrees it runs about 180 to 190. At 30 degrees it runs about 160. When the temp is running at 160 the computer thinks that is still warming up and puts more gas into the engine. What do you think? All of you, please put some input to this question. Thanks[/quote:ebb0e12a1c]

I will have to agree with Chris (aka carundell) that it would seem to be a coolant flow issue.

Mechanical thermostats are one of the few passive items left on a car. With the next generation OBD systems that will set a code for low coolant temps, I think we will see a more dynamic alternative for this valve in the future.

Good luck and let us know what turns up. :)

MJ .... Well said my friend! Thats the exact point we're here! Let the experts give guidance and knowlege! And save the customer BIG $$$

Mathiaso .... so very glad you weighed in! Teamwork is point I didn't touch on and so very glad you did! Drop the egos and give help when help is needed!

Paul ....... my piasono, goumba, padawan of the real techs. Don't You Dare Change A THING!!! Got it?

Suze??????? Where are you girl???

Chris

p.s. idriveatitleist weighed in with an interesting post ............ don't forget it!!!

I'll second the teamwork thoughts.

I don't worry too much about the 100,000 mile thing so much anymore. I have seen plugs go that far and more. Not that I would have myself nor recommend it. But I just had a toyota in the shop with 65,000 miles on it, original plugs, and sold a set of plugs. When I pulled them out, (yes, I really do get my paws dirty), they were practically perfect,ai little anti-seze and they went back in. Seems to depend on some factor as to there wear, not sure what yet. I am more fearful of plugs that are difficult to access, and let them get too far for the fear of snapping them.


On the coolant, seems like 5 years hit well before the 150,000 miles. I switch to the universal long life and recommend every 3 years to change. The Blue coolant is a 2 year coolant.

Back to the original problem. Good call Chris with the blocking off of the radiator. My father drove semi's my whole life, knew just what needed to be blocked by the temp outside to keep the engine running at the proper temp.Engine temp at some point will be dictated by outside temp. Cant tell you how many customers complain " I was headed to Vegas, it was 120 degrees out at 1 in the afternoon and I had the A/C on, my car ran warmer and my A/C didnt get as cold as it does at home where it is 90 degrees"

My first post, please bear with me.

On the subject of Dexcool- the purpose of an extended life coolant serves a desire on the part of a consumer to have their vehicle be "maintenence free". This is the same theory that drives the 7500 mi. oil change, or the 100,000 mi. spark plug. I can't conceive of desgners building in "failed obsolesence", so I must think that they actually do feel that these theories will be borne out under field conditions.
The number of gasket failures that I see with vehicles using Dexcool is incredible. I think that the coolant itself is fine, not for 100,000, but it's not a bad product. It does cause problems, however, when combined with plastic intakes or inferior gasket material. Add to this the fact that vehicle owners who were weaned on green will arbitrarily lift their hood and dump some antifreeze in their overflow regardless of the color that is in there. Now you have a problem that is exponentially multiplied.
I beleive that adding to the issue is marketing. The consumer wants to think about vehicle maintenence as little as possible. They see a vehicle marketed as maintenence free for 100,000. So I see a breakdown come into the shop with 40,000 mi. on it, and the oil (what's left of it) is sludge. Have to heat the pan with a torch to get it out. The woman says "well, I bought the car because it was maintenence free". These people are not stupid, they just bought the bill of goods that was marketed to them.
Granted, I see vehicles that are out of manufacturer warranty. I do know that when there are issues with a particular component, the issues are generally addressed by the manufacturer. Eventually. Sometimes longer. (Case in point, Ford/Mazda trannys- did they get that right yet?) In the meantime, when a vehicle running Dexcool comes in, even without problems, I consistently suggest a coolant flush and conversion.

[quote:9d21eab13a="suze"]My first post, please bear with me.

On the subject of Dexcool- the purpose of an extended life coolant serves a desire on the part of a consumer to have their vehicle be "maintenence free". This is the same theory that drives the 7500 mi. oil change, or the 100,000 mi. spark plug. I can't conceive of desgners building in "failed obsolesence", so I must think that they actually do feel that these theories will be borne out under field conditions.
The number of gasket failures that I see with vehicles using Dexcool is incredible. I think that the coolant itself is fine, not for 100,000, but it's not a bad product. It does cause problems, however, when combined with plastic intakes or inferior gasket material. Add to this the fact that vehicle owners who were weaned on green will arbitrarily lift their hood and dump some antifreeze in their overflow regardless of the color that is in there. Now you have a problem that is exponentially multiplied.
I beleive that adding to the issue is marketing. The consumer wants to think about vehicle maintenence as little as possible. They see a vehicle marketed as maintenence free for 100,000. So I see a breakdown come into the shop with 40,000 mi. on it, and the oil (what's left of it) is sludge. Have to heat the pan with a torch to get it out. The woman says "well, I bought the car because it was maintenence free". These people are not stupid, they just bought the bill of goods that was marketed to them.
Granted, I see vehicles that are out of manufacturer warranty. I do know that when there are issues with a particular component, the issues are generally addressed by the manufacturer. Eventually. Sometimes longer. (Case in point, Ford/Mazda trannys- did they get that right yet?) In the meantime, when a vehicle running Dexcool comes in, even without problems, I consistently suggest a coolant flush and conversion.[/quote:9d21eab13a]

Suze!
Welcome to the gang! And great first post, looking fwd to more! Feel free to help out in anyway!

Chris

In response to idriveatitleist and the wife's Rendezvous-

The outside temp is not going to have such a huge effect on internal engine temp just due to air flow around the motor. It does sound as if the coolant is being overly cooled. Possible that the radiator has too large of a capacity, shield or shroud placement, even fin design. Makes perfect sense that fuel mileage decreases due to rich mixture when ECM doesn't detect optimum temp; isn't it nice when they operate as intended?

Hey Suze! Welcome aboard, Chris said you would joining and you certainly met his accolades!

The comments on the air flow dropping the coolant temp. in the rendesvous leaves me to the conclusion of try a small piece of cardboard on the radiator for a test.