No longer responds to key fob command to open

Hi,

It's Joe again. LOL Listen let's try to reprogram the fob first. I attached the directions below. If you have more than one fob to program, make sure to follow the directions at the end of the list.

To do this, you will need a short jumper wire that is to be fused. It's GM part number J 36169-A. See pic 1 below to get an idea of what it looks like.

The last two pics are the directions.

Let me know if this helps or if you have other questions.

Take care,

Joe

See pics below.

Thanks, Joe! I'll order the J36169-A, as you suggest, and give it a try.
What puzzles me is the fob-detect circuit seemed to work for a while, after we put a resistor on the ignition switch line to the PCM. Then, it began to wander in performance, so I suspected the fob button battery until my VOM showed the battery was over 3.x volts.
How did the detect circuit and/or fob fall away from specifications?

Hi,

That is a good question. I'm wondering if it is somehow due to the drained battery. As far as the part, you can make one. Go to a part store and they have the inline fuses like the pic. It should be cheaper to do it that way.

Let me know what you find.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks, Joe. I'll try that, since my budget is sensitive.
As for the "dead battery", when I checked the button cell in the fob, it was still within voltage, but I replaced it, anyway, and got the same results.
I'll keep you posted.

Sounds like a plan. Just FYI... If you ever have the security light turn on and the vehicle won't start, turn the key to the run position and wait approximately 10 minutes. The security light should turn off and the engine should start. Hopefully, you won't have to have it towed.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, do you mean I could have the same problem, all over again, despite the resistor "repair"?
Where did you learn of this technique? Was it a shop advisory newsletter?

Forgot to ask, what is the fuse electrical value, if it has a value? Fuses are set to sustain current to a certain Ma range, as I recall.

Hi,

That is a standard bypass for GM. Did you try it?

As far as the fuse, the pic shows an orange one which should be 40amp. However, I feel that is too much. I would suggest something like 5 amp for this.

Joe

Thanks, Joe, and I rush to assure that am not in trouble.
And, yes, I went through all the GM anti-theft recovery procedures in the documents you provided, although the specific 10-minute procedure seemed only vaguely familiar.
However, I am certain I checked every procedure before turning to the resistor technique. That surely included the 10-minute wait, with ignition "on", while the Security warning flashes, as well as two or three variations on that procedure.

Hi,

I figured you tried it. As far as the testing, has any more been done?

Joe

Not yet, Joe. I am distracted with a water heater problem. Will let you know ,appreciate your interest.

Sounds good. I will watch for your reply.

Joe

Joe, here is an (1) update, with an (2) additional question placed in this thread because I did not know how to reach you, otherwise. You know at least as much about my car as I, so the question is submitted that way.

(1) The GM bypass link project (above thread) was postponed by the water heater, which you may recall my mentioning. That link should be simple to construct.

(2) The car suddenly refused to start, after parking in a residential driveway. Fortunately, it is parked in a friendly location, so I spent much of last night-- in the driveway-- trying to determine the cause. All the instrument lights come on with the ignition switch, and I heard no problems as I turned the ignition key. Essentially, the starter turns the crankshaft, but with no ignition.

The first time this happened, the engine started briefly, but stuttered strangely, then stopped. Further efforts with the starter brought no response from the engine, although the car lights, exterior and interior, still work normally. To prevent sulphation after all the starter motor drain, I applied my Schumacher battery charger on a slow recharge cycle. The battery (three years old) is now back at 12.8v and "100 percent".

Fortunately, I noticed the motor switch for the windows produced no response, not even a buzz. This persuades me that the engine startup failure happened when a large amperage relay fused and shut the starter circuit down. Why GM put the window motor on the starter circuit, I have no idea. But everything else on the car seems normal

Since I don't have the wiring schematics, could you tell me what fuse I should examine first?

Hi,

I'm not sure which circuit you need. I attached the schematic below and highlighted two fuses related to the starter circuit.

Let me know if that is what you need. However, if the starter is engaging, it won't be a fuse.

Take care and I'll watch for your reply.

Joe

See pic below.

Joe, thanks for your quick response.

1. The starter engages every time, but the motor does not start, and makes no sounds as the starter runs. The two exceptions to that behavior were (1) when I first encountered the problem-- the motor responded, ran/stuttered for a few seconds, and thereafter was unresponsive and (2) after an estimated 12 hours, the motor made noises and vibrated on a second try at motor start, but thereafter was unresponsive.
2. As noted in the previous message, on the theory it was a depleted/below minimum battery, I have recharged the battery with a Schumacher automatic battery charger. At beginning recharge, the battery showed 97 percent discharged, but was restored to 100 percent after only a few minutes, with voltage of 12.8.
3. All lights are operating.
4. Window motors unresponsive-- not even a buzz.
5. Key fob at close range opens and locks doors and trunk button opens trunk (I did not try the emergency horn button).
--------------------------------------------
The schematic shows fuse 2E in the fuse block runs to the starter enable relay on schematic left side and to the ignition switch at schematic center (I mention schematic position only to show I follow).
There are two fuses along the way--
1. Fuse block fuse 2E is 10A, but since the starter engages, that fuse and the starter relay are okay.
2. Fuse block main yellow wire branches at S217 and the right branch enters the ignition switch, and a red wire emerges, running to the MaxiFuse block, to fuse A2 60A.

Okay, so far? If so, that means I have no issue on the starter side, but the ignition switch and its MaxiFuse could be suspect.
The ignition key travels smoothly and never has an "issue" with engaging the starter motor at "Start" position.

Hi,

You are correct. I also don't think it's the switch. I could be wrong, but that would have set a code. Also, looking at the wiring schematic for the power windows, it doesn't tie in. I attached the schematic below for your review.

Have you confirmed spark to the plugs? Will it start if you use starting fluid and then stall?

Let me know.

Joe

1. Test for spark, by removing plug to observe its firing gap. I do not have a remote starter cable, so a friend must help (no problem).
2. Spray starting fluid into what opening? I remember the old, carbureted engines-- after removing the air breather cover, squirting into the open throttle throat. Is this similar?
Thanks, Joe-- I'll keep you posted.

Joe, could you re-attach the power window schematic? It never arrived. When you said it was attached, but since I had gotten no other, I thought you meant the schematic you already had sent to me.
At this point, it puzzles me the power windows switch ceased operation when the motor would not start, yet the schematic shows them unrelated.

Hi,

To use starting fluid on this vehicle, it is sprayed into the throttle body. And yes, to the spark plugs. Here is a link that explains how to do it:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-for-ignition-spark

I reattached the power window schematic below. Note that I had to cut the page in half to make it readable for you. I overlapped the two pics so you can follow from one to the next.

Let me know if this helps.

Take care,

Joe

See pics below.

June 14,. 2022

Joe, here is the latest:

Having checked the battery, the starter relay and the starter, itself, for function, all appears okay-- they consistently respond each time I turn the ignition key to start. So, the problem has been isolated to ignition and/or fuel.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Fuel-- This car was allowed to reach a low fuel tank level frequently, so debris could be in the line and filter. For filter replacement, I have applied Liquid Wrench to the flare nut which screws into the large, silver nut on the end of the filter. This operation carries the danger of rounding the nut, so the wrench must be a flare nut wrench of exactly the right size for the best grip on the flare nut. An adjustable wrench or a "close enough" SAE or metric wrench permits too much play, although they can be used to apply counter-pressure on the silver filter end-body nut, itself, to prevent twisting the fuel line when I apply pressure with the flare nut wrench. The filter is possibly original and is firmly screwed into place.
2. Starter fluid test-- After viewing the throttle body video for location of the throttle throat, it was not helpful-- there was no clear depiction of its location. I am familiar with the older Holley carburetors which had a throat covered with the air cleaner but saw no comparable opening with the 2CarPros video-- please indicate where (0:00) on the video I can find the view you wanted.
3. Ignition spark-- removal of the easiest plug(s) has been difficult because they are very firmly screwed into place, and the working area is very confined.
* I found a video discussion of the ignition coil for the Buick engine and wonder whether this might be a more practical test for spark. Granted, it is not a test of spark at the end of the spark plug, but it might indicate something useful. At 3:57, the video shows the ignition coil and module assembly, and removal of the upper module assembly, permitting visual check on spark between the two voltage poles. Let me know what you think.
South Main St Auto Repair (NY-based). Location of ignition coil and ignition module.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1E3h9KFO1M
* For a second time, I am checking the fuses, MaxiFuse and MiniFuse, just to make sure I did not miss anything. I found the 30A MaxiFuse which controls the power windows, for what that is worth. The fuse is covered by an aluminum (?) cap which has no contact points, and it strongly resists being pulled out. Can that fuse be removed, manually? And if so, can I check continuity across (what I presume to be) its two leads? Of course, the inoperative power window issue may not be directly relevant to starting the engine.

June 14, 2022

Joe,

Here is a postscript, since the edit window on the previous post had expired, and I could not simply attach this item.

The latest OBD2 code scan of System reveals codes P1404 and P0442, which does not seem related to a non-start situation.

Hi,

Yes, I agree. I don't see them causing a no-start. By chance, did you try the starting fluid trick to see if it starts? You mentioned not knowing where the throttle body is located.

From the air filter box, follow the air induction tube to the engine. (Large tube). It mounts to the front of the throttle body. Remove it and have someone press the throttle to the floor, spray starting fluid in it (a small amount), release the throttle, and see if it starts.

I attached two pics of the throttle body below. Try this. I read back through the last few posts from you and noted running it low on fuel several times. The pump may be bad, and this will help us determine it.

Let me know.

Joe

See pics below.

June 15, 2022

Joe, I appreciate your staying with me on this mini-ordeal.

Here is the latest--

1. Fuel filter-- I left this alone, for now, lest I force something and compound my problems. The fuel line-to-fuel filter nut still resists and can be loosened by only the right flare nut wrench. I continue periodic applications of Liquid Wrench.

2. Starting fluid test-- Even before receiving your message (thank you!), I had located the air filter and its large hose clamp, which I was able to loosen enough to permit a full jet of starter fluid. As you advised, I should have somebody floor the accelerator pedal during start to open the throttle to the starter fluid. For better understanding, exactly what will a successful start and brief run with starting fluid indicate? The fuel pump remains suspect-- doesn't the starting fluid operation simply bypass the fuel pump? If so, how to test the fuel pump itself?

3. Rather than use a length of wire to show a sparking ignition module-to-ground connection, I bought an inexpensive "spark plug tester'. The tester connects the OEM spark plug wire to a bright incandescent bulb, which then connects to the spark plug The advantage is that any ignition current malfunction will show up immediately as the bulb flashes.

Joe, as I mentioned earlier, I have located the MaxiFuse for the power windows, with its fuse block labeled "30 CB PWR WDO / S/R" That MaxiFuse is green plastic, but with an aluminum cap. Not only does the cap lack two fuse test points, but half of the cap is painted green, with the lower half left silver. The two fuse block insertion holes for this MaxiFuse (as best I could see in the bright sunlight) are small, round and spaced at either end of the fuse flock opening. Since the fuse cap has no test connection points, I plan to remove the fuse tomorrow with a direct tug from a pair of needle-nose pliers, and test continuity. Do you recommend I simply replace this MaxiFuse, as the best test of a solid connection? If I replace this MaxiFuse with a 30A "MaxiFuse" from a local auto supply store (but without the special aluminum cap (half painted green)), will that be appropriate? If I can extract the original fuse, I can send you a photo of the entire fuse.

Joe,

My email indicates you sent a reply, but nothing has appeared here, yet. Friday, I hope to have information on the (1) ignition spark and (2) attempted start with starting fluid (while another person floors the accelerator pedal).

Hi,

I don't know if you will get this, but I will ask to see why the information isn't getting to you.

Joe

I got that one, Joe.
Please resend your message that I missed.
I am on my way to test the ignition spark and starting fluid and will let you know what happened.

BG

Friday, June 17 @ 12:25pm

My spark plug tester (described above) flashes, and the engine starts briefly with starting fluid, then stalls.
Tomorrow, I'll try to replace the fuel filter.
Joe, I have not heard from you since June 15.
BG

Hi,

If it starts with starting fluid, then it is a fuel-related issue. Before replacing parts such as the fuel pump, I recommend testing fuel pressure. That way we know if there is anything. For example, if it's low, then I would think it could be a filter. If there is no pressure, then I suspect the pump.

I'm sorry you are not getting my replies. I hope you get this one. Let me know how you make out with the test. Also, here is a link that explains how to test fuel pressure:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-fuel-system-pressure-and-regulator

Take care,

Joe

Joe,
Saturday, June 18, I found the cause of the problem.
--------------
The fuel filter was impossible to remove from ground level clearance but elevating the fuel filter side of the car was also very risky, since the surrounding soft grass was unstable.
As it turns out, a (new) friend showed up with an old posted message from a GM/Buick website describing severe corrosion on the Buick's negative buss, and its symptoms-- exactly my own. Removing all the plastic externals, we were able to see the buss connector and about four wires attached to it by a friction fit, one of them black and thick. The negative buss plate, itself, was not badly corroded, but we cleaned it with solvent and rubbed it with sandpaper until it was bright and shiny. Reinserting the buss plate into its plastic connector, we realized cleaning the female wire receptacles in the buss connector of all corrosion would be impossible, so we cut the thick, black wire to the connector, trimmed insulation from its end, and soldered that conductor to the bare-metal portion protruding from the negative buss plastic connector.
On switching the ignition ON, the power windows operated, and the car was able to start. On switching the ignition to "start", the car immediately started.
Obviously, the black, thick wire was the fuel pump ground wire, and resurfacing the negative buss contact plate and soldering the wire in place completed the power circuit to the fuel pump. We applied dielectric grease to the metal plate, for good measure.
* Did you ever find out why your first message of June 15 never reached me? I got your second message, and requested you re-send the previous/first message, but that did not arrive, either.

Hi,

First, I am happy to hear the problem has been resolved. I looked for technical service bulletins that would have been relevant, but nothing was listed. Regardless, it's fixed and that is what is most important.

As far as the posts, I notified the higher-ups and they told me it was a possible glitch in the system and that I should try again. Since I now know it didn't work, I will tell them again what happened.

No matter what, your last post is the most important one. I know it will be helpful to others in the future. I thank you for that.

Take care of yourself, and please feel free to come back anytime in the future. You certainly are always welcome here.

Joe

Thank you for your help, Joe. you walked me through most of the diagnosis. As you can read above, the process you and I followed was methodical, thorough, logical and cannot be faulted.
Although the friend with the corrosion theory turned out to be correct, it was a lucky find, which represented a minor portion of the possibilities.
In any case, soon I hope to reprogram the key fob. The fob seems functional when I stand next to the car but cannot operate more than a few feet distance.
Again, many thanks.

Hi,

If it is working close to the vehicle, it doesn't sound like it needs to be programmed. I'm embarrassed to ask, but are you sure the battery in it is good? That could cause the distance issue. It's just a thought.

Regardless, you are very welcome, and it was a pleasure working with you. Please feel free to come back anytime in the future.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, I did check the battery, but it would not hurt to check it again. Will let you know.

I know it sounds crazy. My son has a 2018 Challenger. He has already replaced the fob key four times. Ugh!!! He knows when it's getting bad because it won't unlock unless you are right next to the vehicle. Then he has to hold the fob right below the steering column for it to start. LOL

Let me know.

RE: Key fob erratic/weak behavior--
Today was productive-- discovered the key fob has much greater range when first used for daily activity. After at least 12 hours "rest", the 3V lithium button battery is noticeably more powerful/greater range.
Tomorrow, I'll purchase a new 3V button cell of the same type, and verify the battery returns all functions to normal.

* Joe, I am preparing the Buick 98 to travel about 300 miles for a family visit. In checking all the major systems, I found the radiator level somewhat low, and the coolant reservoir was completely empty. I refilled the reservoir with 50/50 antifreeze/distilled water (to the "Full Cool") level, and while the engine was cool, I opened the radiator cap, and added about one inch of coolant, filling to within one inch of the filler neck.
While that should take care of a matter of simple neglect in checking the radiator, it does mean the engine may have run hotter than I realized, but without sending a Temperature warning.
With that in mind, I have a Buick engine infamous for its OEM plastic intake plenum, prone to melting from a hot EGR pipe. Aside from my radiator maintenance, is there any reliable way to keep plenum/EGR temperatures as cool as possible? In that regard, I have "solved" a recent Check Engine light problem by carefully tightening the gas cap, and that seems to work, for now.
The oil dipstick shows no water contamination, but is there another check I can make besides a nervous glance at the dipstick? I plan to replace the OEM intake plenum with the Dorman modified plenum and upper gasket replacement (said to eliminate the plenum meltdown problem)..

* If you would rather, I create a new ticket for each of my separate Buick 98 concerns, I'll be glad to do that.

Hi,

As long as the radiator wasn't too low, I'm sure it's fine. Also, the only way to deal with the intake issue is exactly what you said. Replace it. I use a lot of Dorman's parts and really have no issues. I'm sure it will do what they say.

As far as other things to check, there are a few. In general, make sure the tire pressure is good (approximately 35 PSI), the tires are in good condition, make sure the transmission fluid is full, check the power steering fluid to make sure it is full, and inspect the serpentine belt. If there are excessive cracks, replace it. Make sure to fill the windshield washer fluid and confirm the air filter is good. One other thought, make sure the spare tire is good and fully aired up. LOL And make sure you have the components needed in the event of a flat tire.

When you think about it, 300 miles really isn't that much. You will be fine. However, if for some unexpected reason you have trouble, I'll be here, so let me know what I can do to help.

Take care of yourself and have a safe and enjoyable trip.

Joe

Joe, I found an apparent cause of the key fob issue. Although the original battery tested 3.x V on VOM, it faded quickly under transmitter load.
My first clue was the original battery had a much better response in the morning, after a night of non-use. The more I used the fob, the more quickly the normal response disappeared.
Today, I replaced the fading original battery with a new battery, and this time, the replacement battery restored operation to normal. The previous time I tried replacement, the new replacement had not improved response.
As an example of how important diagnosis by verified conditions can be, one of the two "new" button 2032 batteries was only 1.5V. And this was on opening a sealed package!

Hi,

I'm glad to hear you got that working properly. I don't know if you have noticed, but it seems the things we are buying anymore and faulty much more than ever before.

Regardless, have a safe trip and be confident. If you run into any issues, I'll be here.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

What is your preference between non-ethanol and ethanol gas for the Buick 98 Le Sabre 3.8L engine? There is concern that the extra alcohol in ethanol gas simply attracts more moisture, and especially when a car's gas tank is partially empty (1/2 to 3/4 full). Despite the Evaporative Emission Control system, moisture can be pulled from the atmosphere.

The less ethanol in it, the better. Especially for older vehicles. Actually, that is what I use in my tractor, mower, and all gas-operated tools I have. It is less likely to damage anything and will last a lot longer.

Take care,

Joe