Stalling motor, cuts out if electrical problem

2005 SATURN L300
89,000 MILES
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DPAWL31
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I've been trying to fix this for weeks. My wife's car (L81 V6) has been stalling after it reaches it's normal PEAK temperature, when the cooling fan comes on.
It cuts out, and usually won't restart for 10+ minutes of sitting.
Sounds like no spark at all.
I've been told it's one of the following:
Dirty/clogged/bad EGR valve
Faulty Throttle Body
Dirty/clogged/bad IAC valve
Bad Crank Position Sensor

So far, I've ruled out the IAC, because I've been informed it uses the throttle plate to control idle air with the electronic throttle.
The EGR valve, going by ALL DIAGRAMS I have found online, does not exist! It sure as heck isn't where it shows it, right atop the passenger side of the motor, behind the throttle body, next to a big plastic cube with vaccuum lines in and out.
Either way, in my own head I am ruling out the throttle body and EGR - because of the way it CUTS out, and won't attempt to fire at all for a while after. It really feels electrical.

On to the CPS. My local mechanic said he read online 22 comments on stalling with this motor, and 21 of 22 were faulty CPS. Apparently they say the heat of the motor oil is causing it to go faulty at a certain temp. And that sounds like my issue. He told me to remove it AFTER it stalls out, quickly rinse with cold water, reinstall and attempt to restart. I don't really like that option, as it has restarted RIGHT after stalling before, and I don't think it will guarantee a solid answer.

How likely is this the CPS causing it? Is there anything I haven't mentioned that could be the culprit? I was originally thinking overheating going by the 'hottest temp and it stalls' theory... but I watched on my OBDII reader the temp, even at the stall point, peaked @ 204F.

Any input would be much appreciated!
Thanks, -Doug
Jul 2, 2012 at 9:56 PM
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CARADIODOC
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The first things you listed will not cause stalling while driving. They will cause engine performance issues such as hesitation or rough idle, but not a failure to restart.

This guide can help

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/engine-stalls

The crankshaft position sensor WILL do that and it is a very common problem on all car brands. There should be a stored diagnostic fault code in the Engine Computer. I'm surprised your mechanic didn't check for that. That's the first place to start. Many auto parts stores will read them for you for free.
Jul 2, 2012 at 10:03 PM
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DPAWL31
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I have a bluetooth OBDII reader, and I have received the following, sorry I did not add that in before!

P0727 Engine Speed Input Circuit No Signal
P0700 Transmission Control System (MIL Request)
Jul 2, 2012 at 10:51 PM
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CARADIODOC
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The P700 just means there is a code in the Transmission Computer and it is telling the Engine Computer to turn on the Check Engine light. To read that actual code you need a scanner that can access the Transmission Computer.

The other code suggests an intermittent crankshaft sensor. That is the signal that tells the Engine computer engine speed and when a piston is reaching top dead center. The same code could be in the Transmission Computer too because it needs to know engine speed, among other things, to calculate shift points
Jul 2, 2012 at 11:49 PM
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DPAWL31
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My friend is working on it now, while I am at work. They pulled the sensor and it had small metal fragments stuck to it.
He (knowing we have the new sensor in hand) cleaned it off, and lightly sanded the tip of the sensor. Reinstalled and drove around town. No issues. Idle seemed smoother, seemed like it had more power, and more EVEN power.

I suggested they let it sit in the driveway and run, till the cooling fan comes on at least twice. After the first fan coming on - it stalled out again.
They are swapping in the new sensor right now. Think it'll work?
Jul 2, 2012 at 11:57 PM
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CARADIODOC
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Fault codes never say to replace parts. They only indicate the circuit that needs further diagnosis. About 50 percent of the time the sensor in that circuit is the cause of the problem, however, given the consistent way yours fails, I'd say there's a 90 percent chance the sensor is the cause, a one percent chance it's the Engine Computer, and a 9 percent chance it's due to a corroded terminal in an electrical connector or a wire rubbed through and grounding out.
Jul 3, 2012 at 12:34 AM
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SATURNTECH9
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Just to add to this one with a P0727 it is most likely a bad crank shaft sensor i replaced a ton of crank sensors on those with and without codes.They sometimes set transmission codes when they fail.If you had a scan tool that read live engine data when it stalled and didnt start your could have watched the engine rpms while cranking it if the rpms read 0 rpms bad crank shaft sensor.Thats only with the symptoms you have though.
Jul 3, 2012 at 5:05 AM
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CARADIODOC
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A TON of 'em? :)
Jul 3, 2012 at 6:35 AM
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SATURNTECH9
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Yes cardiodoc a ton/alot of them :-) also the P0727 is the transmission code that the P0700 transmission codes present code is refering too.So the scan tool was reading the transmission codes.It just didnt set a engine code for the crank shaft postion sensor.I dont like the remove the crank shaft position soak it water and see if it works ethier.You test if its bad when it doesnt start with a multimeter really simple.Also with a scan tool like i said earlier.I would find a new guy to fix my car with suggestions like that one that can use a multimeter and scan tool to diagnose problems.
Jul 3, 2012 at 4:09 PM
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DPAWL31
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We cleaned off the old one (metal fragments) and lightly sanded the tip.
It started up and ran better, smoother idle better power. But it stalled again.

Dropped in the new one, I took it on a long grueling test drive last night, not one issue.

Thanks for the help guys. And yes, saturntech9 is right about the codes. Only TWICE upon stalling did I get codes, otherwise it was clear of codes, with at least 30-40 other stalls.

Now, can either of you tell my why the diagram of the EGR valve EVERYWHERE I look for this motor, says it's behind the throttle body right on top of the intake manifold? Because it's NOT THERE on my wifes car, or my friends. And I am not just 'missing it', it's legit not there. Thinking they moved it, or REMOVED it, for the final year of the motor? (05)
Jul 3, 2012 at 7:34 PM
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CARADIODOC
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The best way to verify it's not a clinker in yer thinker is to look at the vacuum hose routing diagram under the hood. If any change was made after production, typically for an emissions recall, there would have been a new sticker applied over the old one. Either way, it will show it if it's there.
Jul 3, 2012 at 7:44 PM
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SATURNTECH9
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Facing the front of the car it should be in left rear corner of engine.
Jul 3, 2012 at 8:00 PM
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DPAWL31
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Diagram of EGR location
http://awesomescreenshot.com/0f39eywa1

Attached image shows the schematic for emissions, it would be listed there right? It's not.
Other attached image shows my lack of EGR in that location, lol.
Friend's car, an 05, is also the same way. No EGR, at least right there.
Images (Click to enlarge)
Attached Media
Attached Media
Jul 3, 2012 at 8:24 PM
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SATURNTECH9
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I see where it would have been there was a egr tube that came up from the back exhaust manifold that screwed onto the egr valve.It was deleted starting in the 2004 model year for the v6 model L300.
Jul 3, 2012 at 10:16 PM
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AHARRIS5
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I have a 2005 saturn l300 these are the live data reading when my car is idle. When i let it run for about 15 mins it will die and will not start again until it cools down. i have already changed the ignition coil / module ad my crankshaft position sensor. Here is the live data i got from my scanner do any of them look abnormal

Fuel sys 1 CL
fuel sys 2 CL
Calc Load 2.8
ECT 172
STFT B1 -3.9
LTFT B1 - 0.7
STFT B2 -3.9
LTFT B2 - 0.7
ENG RPM 645
Spar Adv 0
IAT 91
MAF (lb/min) 0.760
TPS 14.1
025 B1 S2 (v) 0.515
STFT B1 S2 N/A
025 B2 S2 (v) 0.475
STFT B2 S2 N/A
025 B1 S1 (ma) -128.000
EQ RATIO II .963
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:30 AM (Merged)
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Nothing that it really out of control. When it doesn't restart, have you checked to see if there is spark and fuel to the engine?
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:30 AM (Merged)
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AHARRIS5
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how would I check to see if the car is getting a spark and I believe the car is getting fuel I just changed the fuel pump. How would i check if its getting fuel
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:30 AM (Merged)
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Visit our repair and service section at the top of the page and look under guides.

Apr 30, 2020 at 10:30 AM (Merged)
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HEATHERSSATURN
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2005 Saturn L300 6 cyl Automatic 75,000 miles

My 05 Saturn L300 has been stalling now for about a month. 1st time was said to be due to battery and alternator. Both were replaced. two weeks later, she stalled again, that time said to be feul injector, then replaced that. she was fine for a week, and then she stalls somemore, she stalls about twice a week, and wont start back up for a good half hour. This just financially sucks and is very stressful!!! Thank you for your time.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:30 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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The first thing i want you to do is go to a auto part's store like auto zone and have them read your code's.You could have a bad crank shaft sensor.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:30 AM (Merged)
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MATT B.
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I have a 2004 Saturn L300 it's a V6 and I'm finding that most every time I stop at a stoplight the car shuts down. I even find it shutting down while the car is in motion. It takes my car anywhere between 5 - 30 minutes to restart again. Any solutions?
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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When it dies and won't start is it a crank no start?Also do you have any code's?Have you checked for code's?
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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MATT B.
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After my car dies I try to restart the car and it cranks but won't fire up. I did have a diagnostics done and they gave me the print outs. P0137: Heated Oxygen Sensor, P2501,P0300: Engine Control Module, P0335: Crankshaft Position Sensor. I spoke with my dad and grandpa and they said it also could be the Throttle Position Sensor.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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As far as the dying and not starting for a few min's i would be looking at the code P0335 crankshaft position sensor a bad crankshaft position sensor is the most likely cause of that.Do you have a multimeter to do some testing?Fixing the code po335 could fix the code P0300 and maybe another code.I would start with that code.I don't see a code you listed that has something to do with the tps sensor.When the tps circuit fails on that engine it doesn't usually cause the engine to die and not start.What it usually put's the car in reduced performance mode causing the car to drive really slow.Also other code's are set when there is a problem in the tps circuit.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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MATT B.
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I don't have a multimeter to do some testing on it. I want to replair it myself because it would be a cheaper way to go. But, I'm not sure where the Crankshaft Position Sensor is located. I know it's by the engine. And I don't have a Owner's Manual for my car. It didn't come with one. Also, they said that I will need a tune up. New Spark Plugs.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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At a 100,000 mile's you will need new plug's among other thing's.You will need a multimeter to test the crank sensor when it doesn't start.The crank sensor is located right next to the oil filter housing it's held in by a small reverse torx head bolt.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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ANDR1EDW
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The engine stalls while driving around 60 mph. After pulling over and turning off and on it starts and runs rough for a while then gets better. Car with a wrench lt appears when this happens.
I used a scan too to check and found a code ECM/PCM internal problem.
A new ECM is very expensive and I cannot find a used one yet.
Is the ECM really the problem? What has happed before to others?
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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Yeah thats a ecm internal failure a bad ecm is the only thing that causes that code.Reset the code and see if it comes back if it does then replace the ecm.I would try ebay for a used ecm a bad ecm could cause stalling.So you have no other codes.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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LARRY MOORE
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Car starts fine and drives for about a mile and dies(no code lights)Let it set for 30minutes and it cranks right up and runs fine for about a mile and dies again so on and so on.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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RIVERMIKERAT
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Check fuel pressure and spark when the problem occurs. Scan it for soft codes (those that don't cause the CEL to light).
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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RASMATAZ
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Next time it refuses to start don't wait for it to make up its mind-do below immediately to determine if its fuel or spark problem

Get a helper disconnect a sparkplug wire or 2 and ground it to the engine atleast 3/16 away from ground-have helper crank engine over-do you have a snapping blue spark? If so-you have a fuel related problem, Do you hear the fuel pump come On when you turn key on? If not check fuel pump fuse and fuel pump relay if okay-check the fuel pressure to rule out the fuel filter/fuel pump/pressure regulator and listen to the injector/s are they pulsing or hook up a noid light. No snapping blue spark continue to troubleshoot the ignition system-power input to the coil/coil packs,coil's resistances,cap and rotor,distributor pick-up coil, ignition control module, cam and crank sensors and computer Note: If it doesn't apply disregard it and keep testing
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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Just to add to this one i have replaced a ton of crank shaft position sensor for that same reason on those cars.Check and see if you have any codes.Please post the exact code numbers if you have any.Also do you have a multimeter to test the crank shaft position sensor when it doesnt start?
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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RIVERMIKERAT
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When checking codes, pull both hard and soft codes.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM (Merged)
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CHRYSTYNAZ
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I was driving down the road accelerating. Made a pop sound then as I let off the gas it stalled. Restarts but stalls as soon as you release the gas. Starts up good.. and will go if I keep engined revved. But when my foot comes off gas the car stalls out
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:32 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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Do you have any codes in the computer? Has the timing belt ever been changed?Does then engine run good and have plenty of power other then wanting to stall at idle?Is the check engine light on while its running?
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:32 AM (Merged)
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CHRYSTYNAZ
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I dunno about codes. But no engine lights on when running. For the most part it runs very well.. it has had the belt replaced and has had good maintenance upkeep .. everyonce in awhile it will shift hard sending it into saftey mode.. I was told it most likely is the cadilac converter by a friend. I had it towed to my apartment
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:32 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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The hard shifting is most likely a bad line pressure control solenoid very common on that car have replaced time on that car.As far as the other if it didn't have plenty of power you could have a plugged cat.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:32 AM (Merged)
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CHRYSTYNAZ
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This morning I went to start my car just to see if it would stall.. it stayed started for a few min and then stalled, however the engine light is now on... everything has power and engine is not making any funny noises.. it just keeps stalling
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:32 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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We need to see what codes you have in the computer? Also when it stalls does it restart right away or do you have to wait before it will restart?Those cars also had issues with crankshaft position sensors.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:32 AM (Merged)
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FRANK1964
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car shut down at idle after about an hour started back up got about a half a block when it shut down again. couple of days later Itook it auto zone ran a diagnostics scan. Two codes came up P0700 tcm requested nil. tcm has detected an emission related fault. P0727 poor conection between tcm and pcm, failed tcm or pcm, open or short circuit condition. Saturn dealership say's I need a level two scanner to properly diagnose that these conditions are but a sympton of real problem. Which could be an ignition dump or right side left side cylinder dump.
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:32 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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You could just have a bad crank shaft position sensor.Do you you have a multimeter that has ohm's reading's on it?
Apr 30, 2020 at 10:32 AM (Merged)